| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | Payment Dispute Thread poster: Alex Wang
|
|---|
Alex Wang
Local time: 02:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
I am currently disputing a payment issue with a poz member and want to see what my other colleagues think.
Here is the brief story:
John Smith (not his real name) did an MPTE project for me. When the project was delivered, John barely changed anything in the provided Google translation, and there were so many obvious mistakes, including typos, grammatical errors, inconsistencies, and inaccuracies.
When I pointed out the problems to him, here is his verbatim respon... See more I am currently disputing a payment issue with a poz member and want to see what my other colleagues think.
Here is the brief story:
John Smith (not his real name) did an MPTE project for me. When the project was delivered, John barely changed anything in the provided Google translation, and there were so many obvious mistakes, including typos, grammatical errors, inconsistencies, and inaccuracies.
When I pointed out the problems to him, here is his verbatim response: my system is not to change where the contents is understandable. And he refused to correct those mistakes.
In other words, he is trying to say that he does not change any of those mistakes produced in the Google translation if the content is understandable.
I told him that if that is how he works, he should have made that clear from the very beginning, and I would never have engaged him had he made that clear. Needless to say, translation deals with languages only, and every translation is supposed to be near-perfect in terms of spelling, grammar, consistency, and accuracy. How can anyone possibly deliver a product that has so many mistakes? If those mistakes are tolerable, why would we even hire a human translator?
As a result, I refuse to pay him, and he is asking for his pay. When I told him that I refuse to pay him, he threatened to email my client directly and publicize my name as a non-payer.
Do you think I have the right to refuse to pay him? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 09:00
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Alex Wang wrote:
When I pointed out the problems to him, here is his verbatim response: my system is not to change where the contents is understandable.
Even though pure MTPE would produce a text that is unidiomatic and awkward, spelling and grammar mistakes should not be present in a translation. (Some types of grammar mistakes are a grey area, especially when it's not easy to tell the difference between a grammar mistake and just very awkward syntax.) It's true that some people use MTPE to create a gist translation (i.e. one that is still flawed but which communicates the main meaning of the text accurately), but IMO that is something that the client should specify. If the client doesn't specify what kind of quality he wants from MTPE, the translator should assume a text with no spelling or grammar errors and no serious deviations from the meaning of the text.
When I told him that I refuse to pay him, he threatened to email my client directly and publicize my name as a non-payer.
I would like to tell you: do not compromise on this.
| | | | | Statement against you | Oct 3, 2021 |
Dear Alex
One of the paragraphs in your own statement is your answer, "he should have made that clear from the very beginning". You are the contractor, YOU should state the clauses and terms and then proceed to hire such translator. Is a bitter but a daily mistake among the community. In order to settle, request a review and make the translator clear about the editing, post editing service, if he/she refuses to update or fix the project, make it clear there will be no payment or an ... See more Dear Alex
One of the paragraphs in your own statement is your answer, "he should have made that clear from the very beginning". You are the contractor, YOU should state the clauses and terms and then proceed to hire such translator. Is a bitter but a daily mistake among the community. In order to settle, request a review and make the translator clear about the editing, post editing service, if he/she refuses to update or fix the project, make it clear there will be no payment or an important deduction from such payment (standard is up to 80%); you were/are responsible from the beginning to issue the proper PO, details or contract, he/she is also responsible for the quality and final product. If this negotiation fails, you can request a third / outside reviewer and make it clear payment will be deducted from the original deal. Good luck. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Did you order "light" or "full" MTPE? | Oct 3, 2021 |
What did the purchase order say that you sent to the translator? Did it expressly say "full MTPE", i. e. that the output should have the quality of a native translation? Or was it rather "light MTPE" or some other undefined standard that allows for errors and mistranslations to remain?
Since MTPE is often used to drive rates down, it also drives quality down, and this is often even expected. Therefore you have to be very clear in the PO and make sure what quality level you order. Th... See more What did the purchase order say that you sent to the translator? Did it expressly say "full MTPE", i. e. that the output should have the quality of a native translation? Or was it rather "light MTPE" or some other undefined standard that allows for errors and mistranslations to remain?
Since MTPE is often used to drive rates down, it also drives quality down, and this is often even expected. Therefore you have to be very clear in the PO and make sure what quality level you order. The lower end of the quality continuum is often a playing field for unprofessional behavior on both sides. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
Adieu
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
| Lots of thieves | Oct 3, 2021 |
In the MTPE biz. And in low-end translation that people treat as MTPE jobs anyway.
Imho, clients SHOULD regularly refuse to pay the embezzlers who just submit whatever the MT spits out and expect someone else to deal with it.
Yes, I said it. Don't pay the thief.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 09:00
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
What did the purchase order say that you sent to the translator? Did it expressly say "full MTPE", i. e. that the output should have the quality of a native translation? Or was it rather "light MTPE" or some other undefined standard that allows for errors and mistranslations to remain?
I think you make a good point, indirectly, that the term "MTPE" means different things to different people.
If I had been asked to do a "full MTPE", without additional explanation of what that means, I would not have interpreted that to mean "the quality of a native translation" -- rather, I would have interpreted "full MTPE" to mean "a translation that deviates as little as possible from the given machine translation".
However, I feel strongly about my original statement that a translation must be free of spelling and grammar errors unless the client specifically says that such errors are acceptable.
| | | |
I know this is not your question, but I wouldn't like it if a client asked me to edit the output from Google Translate. First of all, I am capable of running a text through GT on my own. I don't need someone to do that for me as though the time they have supposedly saved me is worthy of a discount in return. Second of all, the output from GT is usually so bad in my language-pair that it would be pointless trying to use it as the foundation for a professionally written translation. If I ever use ... See more I know this is not your question, but I wouldn't like it if a client asked me to edit the output from Google Translate. First of all, I am capable of running a text through GT on my own. I don't need someone to do that for me as though the time they have supposedly saved me is worthy of a discount in return. Second of all, the output from GT is usually so bad in my language-pair that it would be pointless trying to use it as the foundation for a professionally written translation. If I ever use GT at all, it might be to check on the results for a very specific term or phrase that does not appear in the dictionary, and even this would be unreliable, but it might at least give me a starting point in some rare cases. Otherwise, I would find all of the errors extremely distracting as they might influence my choices while "editing" and even cause me to make errors of my own. Basically, I would prefer to do my own translations from scratch and then decide for myself which tools are needed throughout the process.
A lot of translators feel the same way I do, and this is the point. By the very nature of the work you are offering, you are inviting unprofessionalism, so it should not be surprising to you when you receive unprofessional results in return.
Having said that, I believe that it is completely unacceptable for the work to contain typos, grammatical errors, and some of the other problems you described. I cannot comment on "consistency" since that might depend on the nature of the text and how bad the inconsistencies were, and this is something that should have been discussed before the work started.
Regarding whether the person should be paid, I would have a very difficult time paying someone who did not fulfill the basic requirements of the job. Like all translators, I am sometimes questioned about a particular word or sentence I have chosen in my translations, and the client does not usually approve the project in question until we agree on how to proceed. I cannot even imagine what would happen if I blatantly included typos and grammatical errors in my work.
Given the standards in our profession, which are well known to all professional translators, I think it is reasonable to withhold payment until basic revisions are implemented with the understanding that the final product might still be lacking.
But if the person doesn't want to do even this for you, then I don't really understand what he is asking to be paid for.
If you have been fair in what you have described, then you have nothing to fear if he contacts your client...because he will only make himself look bad. What is he going to say...that he refused to fix typos and grammatical errors in the text? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Professionalism | Oct 4, 2021 |
I cannot imagine any serious professional translator delivering a text with
many obvious mistakes, including typos, grammatical errors, inconsistencies, and inaccuracies
and expecting to get paid for it.
Therefore, I conclude that this person is not a serious professional.
If the job specification was unclear, as some have suggested, there may be some obligation on your part to pay him something for his "trouble".
Then you make sure you never send him more work ever again. Case closed.
| | |
|
|
|
matt robinson
Spain
Local time: 09:00
Member (2010)
Spanish to English
| What did they understand? | Oct 4, 2021 |
In my opinion, in this case, you have to take responsibility for both the flawed business model (Google translate + untried editor = high standard native-quality target text) and your professional negligence (no contract, no written agreement covering your requirements,etc.)
I would pay up, as it would then serve as a constant reminder to you to up your game.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 09:00
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Arabic & More wrote:
I wouldn't like it if a client asked me to edit the output from Google Translate. First of all, I am capable of running a text through GT on my own. I don't need someone to do that for me as though the time they have supposedly saved me is worthy of a discount in return.
Yes, I've had clients tell me that they expect a lower rate because they provide a machine translation for me to work on, but unless they're using a special customized engine that is much better than Google Translate, I myself would not accept a job that pays a lower rate just so that I can use MT.
However, if a client specifically says that the job is "MTPE", then I assume he wants me to edit the machine translation only as much as necessary, and that he (the client) knows that the final product is going to be less good than a human translation. If a client asks for MTPE but then asks that the final product is as good as a human translation, then he doesn't understand that "MTPE" is. Unless, perhaps, clients are now using the term "MTPE" as a euphemism for "you are allowed to use MT and in return I want a discount".
| | | | Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 09:00
Italian to English
+ ...
| The difference between Light and Full post-editing | Oct 4, 2021 |
Hi Alex
It sounds like you wanted Full-PE and got Light-PE, or something similar.
Imo if neither of you specified which it should be and you wanted to do the job cheap using Google translate, then hired a translator to fix it, and they interpreted this as you not being interested in quality when you really wanted a decent translation (at least Full-PE level) I think the best thing is to try and agree to a compromise.
I would also consider how much you paid for t... See more Hi Alex
It sounds like you wanted Full-PE and got Light-PE, or something similar.
Imo if neither of you specified which it should be and you wanted to do the job cheap using Google translate, then hired a translator to fix it, and they interpreted this as you not being interested in quality when you really wanted a decent translation (at least Full-PE level) I think the best thing is to try and agree to a compromise.
I would also consider how much you paid for the PEMT because if you paid very little and got very little I wouldn't complain too much. If you want Full-PE you should use a good MT engine and it's going to cost more than Google translate with a quick look-see, which is more like poor quality MT + Light-PE.
Personally I don't do Light PE, but it's important to know the difference between the two, Light vs Full.
From an RWS blog post
The difference between Light and Full post-editing
Light post-editing
This involves performing as few modifications as possible to the raw MT output in order to make the translation understandable, factually accurate and grammatically correct.
Light post-editing tasks include:
Correcting grammar and spelling mistakes only if they affect the meaning;
Rewriting confusing sentences partially or completely;
Fixing machine-induced mistakes; and
Deleting unnecessary or extra translation alternatives generated by the engine.
The localized text needs to convey the meaning of the source concepts correctly. Only major errors (incomprehensible content) and critical errors (that may incur legal consequences or use the wrong terminology) are covered. The resulting content might sound robotic or just a little bit ‘off’, yet it is fluid enough for a reader to understand the meaning.
This level of light editing is not easy to achieve: naturally detail-oriented linguists literally have to force themselves to skip over ‘minor’ errors and limit their work; their job is to achieve the stated quality level and nothing more.
The key phrases for light post-editing are ‘factual correctness’ and ‘good enough.’
Full post-editing
Full post-editing, a slower and more in-depth process, must produce absolutely accurate translations that consistently use correct terminology, have the appropriate tone and style, have no stylistic inconsistencies and variations and are free from any grammatical mistakes. After this edit, the translation should read as if a professional linguist translated it.
Full post-editing tasks include all of the light post-editing tasks plus:
Checking terminology against approved terminological resources to make sure it is consistent and appropriate;
Cross-referencing translations against other resources;
Making syntactic modifications in accordance with practices for the target language;
Producing stylistically consistent, fluent content;
Applying correct formatting and tagging; and
Correcting ALL grammatical errors, typos, punctuation issues and spelling mistakes.
The expectation is high: full post-edited content should be as fluent as human translation in all aspects. Therefore, content must meet the quality criteria defined by the client for human translations.
But a quick caveat: the effort to achieve human-level quality from MT output may exceed the effort to have it translated by a linguist in the first place.
https://alpha.rws.com/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-light-and-full-post-editing
[Edited at 2021-10-04 12:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alex Wang
Local time: 02:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I want to thank all of you who took the precious time out of your busy life to comment on this.
Needless to say, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Here are my thoughts on MPTE.
Obviously, every translation agency and every one of their clients, myself included, is always looking for ways to cut cost even though the prices of everyday living keep going up. That is just the way of life whether we like it or not. Why wouldn’t they? I mean, if I can get an iPhone for... See more I want to thank all of you who took the precious time out of your busy life to comment on this.
Needless to say, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Here are my thoughts on MPTE.
Obviously, every translation agency and every one of their clients, myself included, is always looking for ways to cut cost even though the prices of everyday living keep going up. That is just the way of life whether we like it or not. Why wouldn’t they? I mean, if I can get an iPhone for $500, why should I pay $1,000?
Google translation is becoming so good nowadays that sometimes it is even better than Many not well-versed translators in many cases, which is undeniable and may be bad for many translators, depending on who you’re talking to and what kind of clients you have. As a freelancer, every translator is their own master and decides what to take and what to decline completely on their own, especially when responding to a job posted on on a place like Proz. No one can force the translator to take that job.
However, I definitely agree with Philip, i.e., when you do decide to take a job on your own, whether it is described or not through a PO or not, it is the basic responsibility of any serious/professional translator who is not a scammer and really wants to keep their customers coming back to them to deliver a “usable” translation. Even though you may argue the exact definition of “usable,” I believe that it should at the very least be free of typos, grammatical errors, and inaccuracies. If anyone is ready to deliver a translation full of obvious typos, grammatical errors, and inaccuracies by using the excuse that it is a “light” MPTE job and the client has not said anything in the PO, I believe that it is the responsibility of the translator to inform the client from the beginning, not the responsibility of the client. Frankly speaking, I simply cannot understand how any translator can deliver anything that is full of such errors. Every translation involves a language, and any translation full of such errors is simply unusable. Period. There is simply no argument about that.
In regard to the comment on consistency in different circumstances, the situation in this case is clear-cut. For example, he left unchanged three different translations of Commission G4, G4 Commission, and G4 Committee, from the Google translation. And more instances like this. Is this understandable/usable/acceptable? Definitely not, if you ask me, because the client will be wondering whether there are three different organizations/government agencies.
The worst part for me, and I assume it would be the same for any client, is that when those errors were pointed out to him, he refused to make changes. I would assume that any client seeing those obvious, objective, and undeniable errors would really question the inaccuracy of the entire translation if they don’t understand the source language, wouldn’t you?
Basically, he changed less than a dozen words out of 9,000 words generated by Google translation, and the file info of Microsoft Word (by the way, I still have his original delivery file) shows that he spent less than 10 minutes on the entire 9000-word document. If you wonder what is the file info of Microsoft Word, click File and then Info. It will give you all the information about the file, including how much time you spent working on the document.
Given all this, would you still pay this translator if you were me? ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
| Not establishing clear boundaries from the start | Oct 4, 2021 |
Later on, I think you may come to consider that there were mistakes on both sides. I am not party to the elements upon which your agreement was established. Both sides probably have relevant points to make. Perhaps the following may be worht thinking about:
- how did you express your expectations to the translator?
- how clear do you think those expectations were?
- how did the translator respond to your expectations in deciding to accept the job?
- what written instructi... See more Later on, I think you may come to consider that there were mistakes on both sides. I am not party to the elements upon which your agreement was established. Both sides probably have relevant points to make. Perhaps the following may be worht thinking about:
- how did you express your expectations to the translator?
- how clear do you think those expectations were?
- how did the translator respond to your expectations in deciding to accept the job?
- what written instructions were given when giving the translator the job?
- what did the translator express during your initial exchanges that led you to believe that your expectations and his were at least similar, if not identicial?
If there are shortcoming in one or more of the above, the current situation may be the result of a simple understanding.
(I note, and agree, however, with those who have pointed out that spelling and grammar mistakes should obviously not be present).
For the future, perhaps draw up guidelines that you will send as standard in certain situations so that the main expectations for a particular type of job are unequivocal. If you did that, then the responsibility weighs more heavily on the translator. If you did not do so, then this will have been a learning experience for both.
The basic rule is that if someone has done a job for you, you should pay them for it. If the work was objectively done badly, for reasons of bad faith or incompetence, you may have grounds to negotiate reduced payment . This too should be provided for in your standard terms and conditions. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | There are different quality levels | Oct 4, 2021 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I think you make a good point, indirectly, that the term "MTPE" means different things to different people.
If I had been asked to do a "full MTPE", without additional explanation of what that means, I would not have interpreted that to mean "the quality of a native translation" -- rather, I would have interpreted "full MTPE" to mean "a translation that deviates as little as possible from the given machine translation".
However, I feel strongly about my original statement that a translation must be free of spelling and grammar errors unless the client specifically says that such errors are acceptable.
I have seen terms like "full MTPE" and "light MTPE" in projects but of course these are not well-defined. It might be a case for the ISO botherers to get a grip on these terms. As things are now, both sides need to agree clearly about the scope of the work before stepping into the muddy waters of MTPE.
I share your feelings about the default requirements of a translation. But the fact remains that there are many participants in the market who accept and deliver lower quality levels, and the definition "just understandable is enough" used by the translator mentioned in the first post has been used for "light MTPE" by global players already, I've seen this in product description projects in the ecommerce area. It is a market segment of its own, and as such, it will develop its own conventions.
For the sake of clarity, we should agree on the following definitions for the profession:
Full MTPE = target text has to be on native professional translation level = Target text can be used for all purposes = Translation rates will be very close to native professional translation rates
Light MTPE = target text must be understandable, but errors and mistranslations are tolerated = Target text can only be used in a context where inferior quality is expected/tolerated = Translation rates will be lower than professional translation rates
The cardinal error of many agencies and clients is the idea that any level of MTPE will give you full quality at a reduced price. This will never work.
| | | | Adieu
Ukrainian to English
+ ...
| Never say never | Oct 4, 2021 |
I recently received a SECOND stage revision job (after 1 translator and 1 other reviewer "worked" on it) where there was a spelling error at the very top of the document. In the word which defines what type of document it is.
We are surrounded by clowns, thieves, and alcoholics.
Philip Lees wrote: I cannot imagine any serious professional translator delivering a text with many obvious mistakes, including typos, grammatical errors, inconsistencies, and inaccuracies and expecting to get paid for it. Therefore, I conclude that this person is not a serious professional. If the job specification was unclear, as some have suggested, there may be some obligation on your part to pay him something for his "trouble". Then you make sure you never send him more work ever again. Case closed.
[Edited at 2021-10-04 11:25 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-10-04 11:48 GMT]
| | | | | Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Payment Dispute | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
| | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
