Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

protection de défaillance

English translation:

fault protection / protective device

Added to glossary by Tony M
Sep 5, 2017 14:47
6 yrs ago
3 viewers *
French term

défaillance (in this context)

French to English Tech/Engineering Energy / Power Generation
From a description of protection equipment on a transmission system: "Les protections de ligne xxx au P345 et défaillance (relais, TT, TC, disjoncteur, etc.)"

Any help would be appreciated.
Change log

Sep 6, 2017 19:55: Tony M Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (2): mchd, GILLES MEUNIER

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Discussion

Eduardo Ramos Sep 6, 2017:
@ John IMO, P345 transmission line = (transmission) line of/at pole P345. So, P345 transmission line XXX and (relay, VT, CT, circuit breaker, etc.) failure protective devices. [VT = voltage transformer; CT = current transformer]. Of course, you could always rearrange the sentence so as to make it more clear... Hope it helps.
John Detre (asker) Sep 5, 2017:
I think P345 is actually a piece of protective equipment: http://www.schneider-electric.co.kr/documents/Catalogue/MiCO...
John Detre (asker) Sep 5, 2017:
I wish I knew! It's a standalone item on a list of protective devices on a transmission system. All the other items on the list are similarly abbreviated and cryptic.
Johannes Gleim Sep 5, 2017:
@ John Same problem as with "poste d'interconnexion". Missing context. Please indicate the kind of device and kind of "défaillance"!

Proposed translations

18 mins
French term (edited): défaillance
Selected

fault

I have to put a very low C/L here simply because it seems to me these terms are not being used correctly; this could simply be my own ignorance, or it could be that the writer got it slightly wrong — or there may be some special significance that escapes me.
SO, assuming it is intended to mean what I suppose it to and that the writer made a slight mistake, I would read this as "protections de ligne xxx ... et de défaillance..." which would mean 'line and fault protective devices' — note that even though we might think of them together, these are in fact two quite distinct functions, provided by different devices.

Note the common use of 'protective device' often necessary to translate 'protections' — another one of those cases where a noun 'missing' in FR has to be supplied in EN, since 'protection' in EN tends to be abstract and uncountable.

I'm sort of assuming that this 'P345' is in some way the name of the 'poste' that you have mentioned in another question, or similar?


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Note added at 1 heure (2017-09-05 16:34:04 GMT)
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Asker, that would make sense, inasmuch as some point needs to be defined as where the line begins and the substation ends; though I do have a suspicion that the P might still stand for Poste; the trouble is, in this specialist field, 'poste' is used for lots of different things, to the point that you can even have several different 'postes' within one 'poste' — confusing, NOT!

What puzzles me slightly is the 'au' — at the P345; this could be just a stray def. article as so often in FR (le point X); OR it might be indicative that there is some specific significance that could need to be addressed...

I think it is meant to be 'line protective devices at P345 AND fault protective devices' — the fact of having the 'at P345' in there makes it awkward to streamline it in EN as has been done in FR. Or of course 'devices providing line protection at P345 and [other!] devices providing fault protection'.
Once you're clear in your head as to the meaning, you can play around with the syntax to your heart's content...

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Note added at 6 heures (2017-09-05 21:00:20 GMT)
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It's important to appreciate that ALL the protective devices are inherently going to be 'electrical' ones; it is, however, important to differntiate between WHAT they are protecting or protecting against — and that is the distinction being made here: between protecting the line, and protecting against faults. Whence the slightly cumbersome wording.

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Note added at 6 heures (2017-09-05 21:10:53 GMT)
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Asker, since Eduardo has found the same 'P345', it looks as if it can't be a specific drawing reference as you thought, but something more specific to do with the lines; is there any connection with the 345 kV, which seems likely?

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Note added at 6 heures (2017-09-05 21:14:42 GMT)
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OK, so if you think the P345 is some model of protective device, than it makes more sence now: it is likely then to be 'line protection via P345 devices + fault protection (using the other devices listed, or possibly protecting against faults in those devices)

The fact that no specific equipment is specified for the 'défaillance' is exactly why 'fault' (= general) is better to use here than 'failure' (= in some specific element).
Note from asker:
I'm not sure but I believe "au Pxxx" refers to points in a transmission system as numbered on a diagram that I don't have. So my suspicion is that "protections au P345" would be "protection at P345."
Peer comment(s):

neutral polyglot45 : protection against P345 and against failures
18 mins
I am far from convinced 'P345' is something to be protected against. I don't see how 'protections au P 345 et [à la]) défaillance' can possibly mean 'against'?
neutral TechLawDC : Un, fortunately, I tried to find "fault protection devices" and similar phrases in Google, and as suspected they 100% do not exist, other than following specific adjectives!! That is why I deleted my earlier answer.
3 hrs
Google can NEVER prove something does NOT exist, and the more unusual the wording, the less likely you are to find it; just how common is the source term? Specific collocations are what it's all about here.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Tony. Your suggestion "line protection via P345 devices + fault protection" and discussion of the issues solved my problem for this item and the entire list."
38 mins

protection against failures

i.e. relays and other cut-outs. Not sure what P345 is... maybe the text reveals more?
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : Can't say 'failure' here, unless we specify WHAT (transformer failure, etc.) — otherwise, it can only be 'fault protection' in general.
2 mins
Something went wrong...
1 hr

electrical protective devices

The main phrase:
protections de ligne xxx au P345 et défaillance = the protections provided in (or by) line xxx at P345, and the electrical protective devices.
("the electrical protective devices" might be interpreted, depending on the context, as "the ordinary and customary fault protection means".)
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Note "electrical protective devices" is a very broad term which in electrical engineering is interpreted more broadly than indicated by the words themselves. It means e.g. means of protection in the event of an external fault, means of protection against internal failure, means of protection in the event of an internal fault, means of protection in the event of an irregularity (external or internal), etc.


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Note added at 1 hr (2017-09-05 15:59:36 GMT)
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Holdings: Electrical protective devices :
library.kilgore.edu/vufind/Record/18623
Electrical protective devices : how to select fuses, circuit breakers, overload relays. Interpreting the national electrical code / ...
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : Given that we know this is an electrical context (and other types of prtective device are unlikely), there's really no need to specify 'electrical', and 'protective device' is as I already said; but you haven't really addressed the issue of 'défaillance'.
3 mins
"Defaillance" is implied. This is yet again one of the 000s of instances where English engineering idiom does not match the French.
Something went wrong...
1 hr

failure (protective devices)

I would say...

P345 transmission line XXX and (relay ... ... breaker, etc.) failure protective devices

As a transmission system is mentioned/involved, here's a nice link that includes all *items* (even P345 transmission lines):

https://books.google.co.th/books?id=c6WpR2tjQp8C&pg=SA7-PA26...


hope it helps,
EjR
Note from asker:
Thanks Eduardo but I can't find P345 transmission line in the reference you gave. I see "transmission line" in the "product description" column in Table 11 and 345 in the "quantity" column for another item, but no obvious connection between them. Am I missing something?
Something went wrong...
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