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Los contrayentes declaran que han celebrado convención matrimonial
Mar 17, 2016 15:54
8 yrs ago
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Spanish term

en la caverna

Spanish to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature possibly philosophical
nadie sabe lo que pasa en el cadáver
hasta que se incendia de endorfinas
pero hay cadáveres importantes y cadáveres importados
europa catatónica mendiga la sorpresa
y mientras se hace la muerta en el atoro
asco de venirnos solos e irnos solos
todos estamos de pie {{{{ en la caverna}}}}
la tristeza de este mundo no es que duela el dinero

_________

I'm NOT looking for help with the actual translation, but for confirmation or otherwise that I've properly understood the meaning or implications here of "la caverna". So far, I've assumed that this refers to the allegory of Plato's cave, but have nothing to corroborate this. Is this a cultural reference that the Spanish would be more acquainted with than perhaps the British reader? I've also found elsewhere a "caverna de nacionalidades", but have yet to discover what this entails…

The poem is connected with the EU and Holland's forthcoming chairmanship, and I'm informed that many the poems refer to the refugee crisis. This doesn't appear to apply especially to this particular poem, which begins on the Gordo lottery and ends on abject poverty. So what I'm asking is whether "la caverna" has any special cultural references for Spanish (mainland) people and if so, what they involve.

Many thanks if anyone is able to provide any (informed!) help. No guesses please, unless they are inspired ones!

Discussion

Carol Gullidge (asker) Mar 18, 2016:
thank you all! I have indeed contacted the poet, and am hoping for a reply before too long.

Both Andy's and Cecilia's suggestions point in similar directions, although I'm rather hoping that Cecilia's "reactionary" one from the RAE is the way to go, as it is easier to fit into the poem (something connected with "status quo" or "standing still" follows on well from the previous line)

I do hope at least one of you will post your suggestions as answers, as I am very aware that points are supposedly awarded for "the most helpful answer", and in my experience, this isn't necessarily the closest translation to my final choice, but the suggestion that has most helped put me on the path to working this out for myself.

In any case, I hope to let you know the outcome, and plan to post the chosen term in the Glossary
Andy Watkinson Mar 18, 2016:
@neil "The usage relating "caverna/cavernícola" with far-right ideologies is pretty common"

Yep. That's why I mentioned it.
neilmac Mar 18, 2016:
@Andy The usage relating "caverna/cavernícola" with far-right ideologies is pretty common in my experience, and seems logical if you think about it.
Cecilia Gowar Mar 17, 2016:
@Carol I believe in a case like this linking up with the poet would be the best idea, if possible.
And Carol, I would not worry too much about fitting anything into the poem since it is free verse and has no meter or rhyme, except for the two verses in the middle, at least in the fragment you published.
Carol Gullidge (asker) Mar 17, 2016:
@ Donal many thanks!
Carol Gullidge (asker) Mar 17, 2016:
thanks Cecilia! Although not easy to fit into the poem, I really think you could be on to something here! I shall have to check with the client/agency if they can get corroboration from the poet herself before the deadline runs out
DLyons Mar 17, 2016:
@Carol Without knowing more, it's very difficult to say what the influences might be. Any or all of Walter Benjamin, Giorgio Agamben, José Saramago seem possible.
Cecilia Gowar Mar 17, 2016:
This is from the RAE:
"Caverna:
3. f. coloq. Esp. Conjunto de las personas de mentalidad o actitudes retrógradas de una sociedad. La caverna."
And here's a link where the whole of Spain is called "la caverna" by a Barça fan.
http://www.blaugranas.com/para_la_caverna_estamos_muertos-it...
So may be "caverna" means in this case a backward mentality.
Carol Gullidge (asker) Mar 17, 2016:
Thanks Andy! I had also found references to the right-wing, in connection with Marine Le Pen, and have been racking my brains to figure out if this could have any relevance to the poem. The only possible link I can see is in "hay cadáveres importantes y cadáveres importados", where it is clear that a distinction is being made between immigrant corpses and "important" ones. I have left this as imported v. important to retain the play on words. The other poem I have to translate (from Catalan) is about "pasteres" or pateras, so the link with the refugee crisis is much clearer.
Carol Gullidge (asker) Mar 17, 2016:
Thanks Robert! not yet, but it sounds a good idea :)
Carol Gullidge (asker) Mar 17, 2016:
thanks Beatriz! I was hoping that wouldn't be the case, but it is what I need to know :)
Andy Watkinson Mar 17, 2016:
The only reference I can think of which entails "la caverna" is to the far right-wing (also known as "el búnker").

It's a common expression,
"Jan 21, 2016 - Lo que no parece aceptable es que se dirijan a Pablo Iglesias como "el Coletas", a ver si la caverna española es capaz de dirigirse a Rajoy ..."
but whether it has anything to do with your poem is beyond me.
Robert Carter Mar 17, 2016:
Hi Carol Have you tried posting this on the Spanish-Spanish forum too?
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro Mar 17, 2016:
Hi Carol, I can't think of any Spanish cultural reference related to "en la caverna".
Carol Gullidge (asker) Mar 17, 2016:
Thanks Phil! Yes, it is poetry but I can't help feeling that this caverna could be a crucial cultural reference that may be very familiar to Spanish speakers and which may or may not need some indirect glossing for the English audience. That is what I'm trying to find out. "Standing in the cave" on its own means nothing to the target audience, especially as it is a complete non sequitur in the context.
philgoddard Mar 17, 2016:
This is poetry. We can all say what we think it might mean, but there are no right or wrong answers. Personally I would do a literal translation and let readers decide for themselves, rather than imposing my own interpretation on them.
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