Dec 28, 2011 20:49
12 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Italian term
dolìe téchne
Italian to English
Art/Literary
Architecture
Book on design in architecture
No trouble with the second word, which is ancient Greek for craft/art. All I can find for dolìe is Venetian dialect for le doglie. This architect thinks that the secret to good design lies in the etymology of words (technology) and ancient Greek wisdom, but then he sets it along side the English "know how", but omits the etymology. A very knowledgeable geography teacher told me many years ago that the word came from Texas in the 1930s. Many of the Texan oil millionaires had little schooling and little patience for long words derived from ancient dead languages, so they gave up on technology in favour of a new simple term: "know-how". I don't know how true it is. Ooops, sorry, I'm tired.
Inoltre il tema del rapporto tra disegno utile e disegno inutile può essere trattato anche con riferimento al nesso che intercorre tra tecnica e tecnologia. Al riguardo paiono del tutto convincenti alcune riflessioni condotte da Giuseppe Ciribini. "La tecnologia è, etimologicamente, il lògos della téchne. Ove téchne è l'attività umana (il mestiere, l'arte), l'instrumentum (il mezzo) necessario a conseguire l'obiettivo dell'arte, la qualità (il modo di essere), alla quale attività sono riconducibili gli aspetti della realtà suscettibili di classificazione e di giudizio e, talvolta, l'interpretazione della realtà stessa: ma pure, l'abilità, l'astuzia, l'accorgimento, il metodo, utili al completamento dell'attività tecnica. I greci indicavano addirittura con téchne la produzione (pòiesis) del vero nel bello sicché le opere d'arte non erano da essi fruite esteticamente, bensì nel loro compiuto valore tecnico (Heidegger). Il lògos è, poi, il senso, la facoltà intellettiva, la regola: e, ancora, il dire originario, l'essere presente, il durare nella rivelazione. Si può allora concludere che la tecnologia è la trattazione, è la regola del compimento intenzionale della **** dolìe téchne****, dell'arte astuta: sinteticamente il sapere come (o know how degli anglosassoni), di cui la tecnica sarebbe il sapere che cosa (il modo di essere), e il sapere perché (l'intenzione).
Inoltre il tema del rapporto tra disegno utile e disegno inutile può essere trattato anche con riferimento al nesso che intercorre tra tecnica e tecnologia. Al riguardo paiono del tutto convincenti alcune riflessioni condotte da Giuseppe Ciribini. "La tecnologia è, etimologicamente, il lògos della téchne. Ove téchne è l'attività umana (il mestiere, l'arte), l'instrumentum (il mezzo) necessario a conseguire l'obiettivo dell'arte, la qualità (il modo di essere), alla quale attività sono riconducibili gli aspetti della realtà suscettibili di classificazione e di giudizio e, talvolta, l'interpretazione della realtà stessa: ma pure, l'abilità, l'astuzia, l'accorgimento, il metodo, utili al completamento dell'attività tecnica. I greci indicavano addirittura con téchne la produzione (pòiesis) del vero nel bello sicché le opere d'arte non erano da essi fruite esteticamente, bensì nel loro compiuto valore tecnico (Heidegger). Il lògos è, poi, il senso, la facoltà intellettiva, la regola: e, ancora, il dire originario, l'essere presente, il durare nella rivelazione. Si può allora concludere che la tecnologia è la trattazione, è la regola del compimento intenzionale della **** dolìe téchne****, dell'arte astuta: sinteticamente il sapere come (o know how degli anglosassoni), di cui la tecnica sarebbe il sapere che cosa (il modo di essere), e il sapere perché (l'intenzione).
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 | the deceitful craft |
Jim Tucker (X)
|
| 4 +2 | deceitful art/art of deceit |
Giles Watson
|
| 4 | dolìe téchne |
Thomas Roberts
|
Proposed translations
26 mins
Selected
the deceitful craft
Should be "dolié techné"
Those should actually be long marks over the vowels, but this is all I have right now. Many publishers use the acute, anyway.
δόλιος = deceitful
δόλιος = deceitful
Those should actually be long marks over the vowels, but this is all I have right now. Many publishers use the acute, anyway.
δόλιος = deceitful
δόλιος = deceitful
Note from asker:
| Thanks a lot Jim |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks Jim, difficult to decide. Pity I can't split the points, but Giles' post was more useful on balance."
+2
26 mins
deceitful art/art of deceit
The answer is in your passage ("arte astuta" translates the ancient Greek "δόλιη τέχνη").
In Homer (odyssey 4.455), the phrase is used to describe the skills of of Proteus, the "Old Man of the Sea" who changes form in his attempts to elude capture.
HTH
Giles
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Note added at 38 mins (2011-12-28 21:28:28 GMT)
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This is AT Murray's 1919 translation, which offers "crafty wiles" for your phrase:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:19...
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Note added at 53 mins (2011-12-28 21:43:40 GMT)
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The ancient Greek δόλιος contains an element of treachery or unfairness as well as cunning (some etymologists link it to "dolo" in the legal sense of "malice"). Proteus is presented by Homer as using tactics unbecoming of a warrior. In other words, this is "astuzia" that shades into "furbizia" if not out and out "inganno".
In Homer (odyssey 4.455), the phrase is used to describe the skills of of Proteus, the "Old Man of the Sea" who changes form in his attempts to elude capture.
HTH
Giles
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 38 mins (2011-12-28 21:28:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
This is AT Murray's 1919 translation, which offers "crafty wiles" for your phrase:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:19...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 53 mins (2011-12-28 21:43:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The ancient Greek δόλιος contains an element of treachery or unfairness as well as cunning (some etymologists link it to "dolo" in the legal sense of "malice"). Proteus is presented by Homer as using tactics unbecoming of a warrior. In other words, this is "astuzia" that shades into "furbizia" if not out and out "inganno".
Note from asker:
| Hi Giles, my Latin is poor and I have no Greek. Deceitful art makes perfect sense in the context. He has been going on about Plato's criticism of art (painting a bed in Book ten of the Republic) In the text he put both dolie techne and arte astuta in Italics and then deceit (inganno) and astuzia are close, but definitely not the same thing. I would translate arte astuta as cunning art. |
| Would seem to be a case of an ancient Homerian artful dodger. Both you and Jim put deceit, which is what fits my context best, the deceit of imitative art in Plato's oh not so brave and beautiful a republic. I was around 17-18 last time I read it (in translation). |
| Thanks a million Giles, and lots of festive greetings and a happy new year to you and Jim. |
| Thanks Giles. I think Grace said it all. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Jim Tucker (X)
: yes - the IT phrase is intended to be a gloss
2 mins
|
| agree |
tradu-grace
: Great explanation Giles! Festive greetings!
4 hrs
|
2 hrs
Thomas Roberts
Native in Italian
&
English
Multilingual academic lawyer
Native in: English (Variant: Scottish) 
, Italian
Works in: Italian to English, German to English, French to English, and 3 more.
dolìe téchne
I would leave it as it is for two reasons.
First, Greek is such an important part of Heidegger's thought, and the whole idea that it can be translated without distorting the message misses the point of his argument.
Secondly, Heidegger argues that techne has a dual meaning in Greek, as both art and craft (as the other two answers acknowledge), so when it is left in Greek it is intended to preserve that ambiguity. In any case, when the concept is applied in a modern setting, in English at least, the term technology is used.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2011-12-28 23:05:27 GMT)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Question_Concerning_Technol...
First, Greek is such an important part of Heidegger's thought, and the whole idea that it can be translated without distorting the message misses the point of his argument.
Secondly, Heidegger argues that techne has a dual meaning in Greek, as both art and craft (as the other two answers acknowledge), so when it is left in Greek it is intended to preserve that ambiguity. In any case, when the concept is applied in a modern setting, in English at least, the term technology is used.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2011-12-28 23:05:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Question_Concerning_Technol...
Note from asker:
| Hi Tam, that was really taken for granted just as soon as Jim Tucker confirmed that dolìe was in fact ancient Greek, which wasn't at all clear from the original with this whole phrase in Italics: "dolìe téchne, dell'arte astuta". I think I will "translate" arte astuta as "deceitful art", since this seems to fit the context of Plato's condemnation of art, which the author has made extensive reference to. As for Heidegger, this is very useful for the translation. This book is much more about philosophy than architecture so far. Personally with a training in experimental psychology and a knowledge of neuropsychology, I see philosophy based on the empirical truths given by the senses as on a par with alchemy. However, a translator's author is always right. |
| Thanks Tam |
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