| A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3] > | Agency reduces fee by 50% - feedback needed Téma indítója: earlyesther
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| A cunning, greedy client | Nov 27, 2013 |
esther tanuadji wrote:
Third, I can afford losing this agency. The rate he asked is below the normal rate and his projects was always 'urgent', which means the deadline was always tight. This is also the reason why I think his statement is inadmissible, since I have (always) 'reduced' my fee for good faith, for future business with him and now he ask for another 50% reduction.
Clearly, your client is a very cunning person:
1) Always tight deadlines
2) Always low rates
3) Huge (50%) discount (on top of the low rate) for a "delay" he himself agreed to
It would seem to me that he has a plan that paves the way for him to use any lame excuse to make even more money on the deal.
Demand your 100% pay in professional, firm, unmistakable terms.
| | | | | Not a reliable business partner | Nov 28, 2013 |
Miguel Carmona wrote:
Clearly, your client is a very cunning person:
1) Always tight deadlines
2) Always low rates
3) Huge (50%) discount (on top of the low rate) for a "delay" he himself agreed to
It would seem to me that he has a plan that paves the way for him to use any lame excuse to make even more money on the deal.
I agree. Not a reliable business partner. An entry in the Blueboard would help others protect themselves against this kind of abuse from this person.
| | | | | Interesting perspective | Nov 28, 2013 |
Miguel Carmona wrote: esther tanuadji wrote:
Third, I can afford losing this agency. The rate he asked is below the normal rate and his projects was always 'urgent', which means the deadline was always tight. This is also the reason why I think his statement is inadmissible, since I have (always) 'reduced' my fee for good faith, for future business with him and now he ask for another 50% reduction. Clearly, your client is a very cunning person: 1) Always tight deadlines 2) Always low rates 3) Huge (50%) discount (on top of the low rate) for a "delay" he himself agreed to It would seem to me that he has a plan that paves the way for him to use any lame excuse to make even more money on the deal. Demand your 100% pay in professional, firm, unmistakable terms.
Interesting perspective, Miguel. My first reaction is to see a restaurant mentality there, as in cold food = free meal kind of approach to translation services.
| | | | earlyesther
Local time: 09:18
indonéz - angol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ | my final statement | Nov 29, 2013 |
Hello,
Thank you again for all feedback and hello Lukasz, Agnes, Kiara, Samuel, Miguel, Tomas.
I know legal service is not cheap, particularly in Singapore and compared to the amount of this project, taking one will eventually make me end up with nothing. I have consulted another Singaporean agency and he agreed on this. So, I ruled out any statements related to "legal action" and send the letter below. Still haven't got any responses yet. (And, I've just realized tha... See more Hello,
Thank you again for all feedback and hello Lukasz, Agnes, Kiara, Samuel, Miguel, Tomas.
I know legal service is not cheap, particularly in Singapore and compared to the amount of this project, taking one will eventually make me end up with nothing. I have consulted another Singaporean agency and he agreed on this. So, I ruled out any statements related to "legal action" and send the letter below. Still haven't got any responses yet. (And, I've just realized that I've been very nice with this agency, I even offered price reduction before the deadline is extended, a real expression of good faith!)
Dear Mr. XXX,
WITHOUT PREJUDICE
You are fully aware that I did business with your company, XXX Translation, and not the end client. Therefore, our agreement should not be regarded as an entity of the agreement with the end client. In this case, an agreed substantial amount of reduction in the later, between the company and the client, could not be extrapolated as an automatic reduction in the equal amount for the contractor, particularly without expressing it first in written consent. In this case, the consent should be expressed before the final product is delivered and both the contractor and the company should agree on this new term. You should made allowance that such condition never exist.
The contractor once offered price reduction, but your company has never expressed any interest in such condition and turned that down by suggesting a new deadline, which was then agreed by both the contractor and your company as well. Up to this point, even until the final product was delivered, any amount of reduction was never imposed, let alone such profound one.
Therefore, I expect to receive the full payment of S$ XXX for this job coded XXX. Failing this, I will have to escalate the issue, including but not restricted to posting feedback on the ProZ.com Blue Board and broadcasting this information in my networks
Sincerely,
If this agency insists, probably I will just reply with a very simple statement: 'Just pay and do whatever you want, I'm not interested in doing business any more with you" (will polish this). There is nothing more I can do... ▲ Collapse
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earlyesther
Local time: 09:18
indonéz - angol
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TÉMAINDÍTÓ | additional info: 45 days late | Nov 29, 2013 |
I forget to mention, to make matter worse, the initial statement "I'm sorry to let you know...." was sent to me by email 45 days after the final delivery... :S there must be something wrong with this agency.... or, to be frank, yes, there is huge possibility that he is just avoiding his responsibility to pay. Hopefully this doesn't have to go for a long time....
| | | | Kay Denney 
Franciaország
Local time: 04:18
francia - angol
esther tanuadji wrote:
I forget to mention, to make matter worse, the initial statement "I'm sorry to let you know...." was sent to me by email 45 days after the final delivery... :S there must be something wrong with this agency.... or, to be frank, yes, there is huge possibility that he is just avoiding his responsibility to pay. Hopefully this doesn't have to go for a long time....
i.e. he comes up with an excuse only when it's actually time to pay? I'm afraid that's a bad sign. It's more likely just to be delaying tactics. When the client kicks up a fuss immediately (over a missed deadline or quality issues) and the agency passes the info on immediately, I'm more inclined to think they genuinely have a problem. But if they wait for 45 days to say that getting a file 1 day late was a problem, I somehow think that there is less chance of it being genuine.
Unless they've been negotiating hard for 45 days with their client to no avail, but that's not all that likely, I'm sure they would have mentioned it if they had.
You might want to consider putting a clause in your payment terms to the effect that the client has X days in which to assess translation quality and lodge a formal complaint, whether the complaint is about quality or deadlines.
I once had a client complain that I had produced a poor translation. They sent me the file with a load of red ink on it, although there were mostly subjective comments and just one term I had translated two different ways (both being acceptable, it was just inconsistent).
But I had produced that translation several months previously and they had said nothing.
In fact, I found out later that they had hired an in-house translator and he needed to show that he was better than me in order to keep his job. The complaint came precisely at the moment when his fixed-term contract was coming to an end. He must have managed to renew it because I haven't heard from this client since.
| | | | Niina Lahokoski
Finnország
Local time: 05:18
Tag (2008 óta)
angol - finn
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| Urgent job - issues raised several weeks later... | Nov 30, 2013 |
Texte Style wrote:
But if they wait for 45 days to say that getting a file 1 day late was a problem, I somehow think that there is less chance of it being genuine.
I agree. Especially with these "urgent" jobs, it is supposed that the end client will use the translation right after receiving it (if not, why was the job so urgent in the first place?), and so they should send any complaints and comments soon after delivery. Even with less urgent jobs, raising issues after 45 days is not acceptable practice - it is smells like a trick to avoid or delay payment.
| | | | earlyesther
Local time: 09:18
indonéz - angol
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TÉMAINDÍTÓ | what should I say now? | Dec 6, 2013 |
Please excuse me again, I think I need further feedback...
I have given explanation twice, once in business style and the other in a very friendly manner, but this agency keep on pushing me to send the "revised" invoice with the amount they ask. What should I say now?
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Sheila Wilson
Spanyolország
Local time: 03:18
Tag (2007 óta)
angol
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esther tanuadji wrote:
I have given explanation twice, once in business style and the other in a very friendly manner, but this agency keep on pushing me to send the "revised" invoice with the amount they ask. What should I say now?
Sorry to hear you haven't got your money yet, Esther. It seems like you're getting close to the legal action or debt recovery choice.
Can you get some cheap or even free legal advice? My own personal experience has shown that many lawyers will give the first half hour of advice free, so that you know where you stand. There are also forums where "experts" (usually legal students nearing graduation, those who never got round to practising or simply retired lawyers) will offer advice for free or for a very affordable sum. The only problem is that you must make sure that you take advice from someone who really knows about cross-border services. A lawyer could know Indonesian law inside-out and yet may give poor advice if they don't understand the global picture. In the UK, there's actually a body specifically set up to give free or affordable advice - maybe something like that exists in your country. I really do think it's legal advice you need now: however well-intentioned fellow translators are, we can't know what's best for your specific situation.
It sounds to me as though you aren't going to get anywhere by exchanging more emails with this person. Maybe it would be better to terminate that side of things now. After all, there can't be much left to say apart from "PAY ME!". Personally, I would now send a last very short letter (by registered post) that simply restated the invoice details; the fact that the payment deadline has passed and that further correspondence, until the matter is settled, will be via your lawyer. Some people people would opt to break off email exchanges but start telephoning, frequently but irregularly. I could never do that as I hate using the telephone but it can work, as long as you're careful not to lose your temper and make threats etc as that could put you on the wrong side of the law.
But I really do think that a little legal advice is called for.
| | | | earlyesther
Local time: 09:18
indonéz - angol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ | okay, will look for a lawyer now | Dec 6, 2013 |
Hi Sheila,
Thank you. Yes, I think I will look for a lawyer now, law student is a good idea and I will also talk to the other Singaporean agency(ies) I'm referring to in my prev post, they might be able to direct me in this matter and they might have their own lawyer who knows translation business in Singapore well... I'll consider whatever fee I have to pay as a 'tuition' fee to learn Singaporean law...
I don't want to call this agency, not because I don't like teleph... See more Hi Sheila,
Thank you. Yes, I think I will look for a lawyer now, law student is a good idea and I will also talk to the other Singaporean agency(ies) I'm referring to in my prev post, they might be able to direct me in this matter and they might have their own lawyer who knows translation business in Singapore well... I'll consider whatever fee I have to pay as a 'tuition' fee to learn Singaporean law...
I don't want to call this agency, not because I don't like telephoning, I'm just losing interest....and I like the idea of having someone taking over all communications involved ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Franciaország
Local time: 04:18
francia - német
+ ...
Sometimes having a (knowledgeable) third party involved works miracles, and some agencies just need to be faced with hard facts.
| | | | earlyesther
Local time: 09:18
indonéz - angol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ | this is my final saying - sumary of this topic | Dec 12, 2013 |
Hello again,
The agency changed his mind and asked for 30% reduction instead of 50%, complete with a remark that he was willing to lower his request because he appreciated my hard work and good attitude (what?!). This further conceived the notion that he was just trying to haggle over the payment. He was also whining about the client's dissatisfaction, my responsibility on it, and my 'late' delivery. I didn't take any legal advice and sent my reply below. No reply, but I'm not expe... See more Hello again,
The agency changed his mind and asked for 30% reduction instead of 50%, complete with a remark that he was willing to lower his request because he appreciated my hard work and good attitude (what?!). This further conceived the notion that he was just trying to haggle over the payment. He was also whining about the client's dissatisfaction, my responsibility on it, and my 'late' delivery. I didn't take any legal advice and sent my reply below. No reply, but I'm not expecting one and I think we can close this topic now. I might not get my payment, at all, but never mind. Thank you so much for all of your advice and nice to meet you all here.
Dear Mr. XXX
,
I noted your situation and by this I confirm the receipt of your electronic correspondence asking a revised invoice with 30% alternative reduction of the due amount.
However, such further request has put me into even more difficult situation. I regard our cooperation. I also regard you as a person with robust experience in the translation industry. On the other hand, I understand that all discussions regarding financial obligations should not be conducted 45 days after the final file is delivered. In such condition, the continuous request after such period of time, first to have the price slashed to half, followed by another bargain, reducing the number from 50% to 30%, only nourished the conception that there was a voluntary effort to haggle over the financial obligations.
Furthermore, you kept on insisting that your contractors or suppliers had unlimited obligations to all loss incurred by your client to your company. I believe you are aware that in real business situation such condition rarely exists. Suppliers can only deal with the company, not the end client, since that company is actually the end client for those suppliers. Additionally, any contracts between a company, or in this case an agency, with its suppliers are always separated from any contracts with their clients. Those are two different entities that cannot be confused one into another. In case your company is unique and employs such special policy of integrated obligation, the good practice is to let all suppliers aware of such condition before any projects start, even before any cooperation is implemented, as there is possibility that such practice discourages suppliers to involve in the agreements.
In case such information has never been provided, your later decision to establish such extrapolated obligation will only nurture another conception that you are trying to impose your inability to deal with the client, in any administration difficulties, to your suppliers. In this case, such information indeed has never been provided.
There was another issue with dissatisfaction. However, since the product was formal linguistic works, any dissatisfaction should be declared by a linguist, who is capable of expressing him/herself in the target language, which is English, both formally and impeccably. In such case, the proper procedure is returning the file back to the contractor and asking this person to fix any issues. In any cases, dissatisfaction cannot be employed as a way to alter the contract unilaterally and avoid financial obligations.
Still about dissatisfaction, most importantly, before such linguistic assessment is conducted, the condition that any dissatisfaction cannot be expressed 45 days after the final product is used should be made allowance. This next restaurant analogy might be helpful to give you clearer understanding.
In case we dissatisfied with any dishes we order from any restaurants, we should always express it while the dishes are still warm. We cannot consume those dishes to the latest bite, then express our dissatisfaction to the restaurant’s manager and expecting free lunch policy from him. We cannot even act irrelevantly by visiting the restaurant 45 days after, expressing our dissatisfaction, then asking the restaurant to return our money.
Additionally, there was also an implicit intent to elude the fact that the new mutual agreement regarding the deadline has been achieved. In any agreements, new deadline is new deadline, whatever the preceding situations were. Therefore, once it is established, all submissions are evaluated towards this new deadline.
Given such conditions, I have no plausible reason to revise the amount stated in the invoice. However, I will take the high road and not taking any actions regarding any of your decisions in dealing with your financial obligations. As my last point, please note that my decision in doing so is NOT made neither because of such threat to my future nor because I appreciate your mercy on my hard work and good attitude, as any companies, agencies, and person with genuine expression of good faith will do so without deeming any allowances for doing so.
Yours sincerely ▲ Collapse
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| Good professional letter with unnecessary emotional ending | Dec 12, 2013 |
Your letter is good, however, I think you should have stopped after this sentence:
"Given such conditions, I have no plausible reason to revise the amount stated in the invoice."
IMHO the only additional sentence that had any business being there would be something like this:
"I expect immediate payment of the invoice - I attached a copy here."
I hope he comes to his senses and pays you - by the way have you made a BB entry yet?
[Edited at 2013-12-12 15:31 ... See more Your letter is good, however, I think you should have stopped after this sentence:
"Given such conditions, I have no plausible reason to revise the amount stated in the invoice."
IMHO the only additional sentence that had any business being there would be something like this:
"I expect immediate payment of the invoice - I attached a copy here."
I hope he comes to his senses and pays you - by the way have you made a BB entry yet?
[Edited at 2013-12-12 15:31 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | earlyesther
Local time: 09:18
indonéz - angol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ
Hi Katalin,
Yea, should be, but he has no intention to pay. It is obvious. And his reason gets more and more nonsense, some I have shared here, there are some other, such as cannot pay me while he can afford a trip to Europe, and I'm not mentioning many things else. If I insist, like what he does, there will be no ending on this matter; I'd rather use my time to pursue other business. This one is really bad. Other ag... See more Hi Katalin,
Yea, should be, but he has no intention to pay. It is obvious. And his reason gets more and more nonsense, some I have shared here, there are some other, such as cannot pay me while he can afford a trip to Europe, and I'm not mentioning many things else. If I insist, like what he does, there will be no ending on this matter; I'd rather use my time to pursue other business. This one is really bad. Other agencies, scams, will just leave, disappear and ignore all communication without insisting here and there. While some others, with budget sensitive projects will have the gut to say it in front, 'can I ask XX% of your rate as our budget for this project is only XX".
I haven't given any entries yet on the BB. I'm not about to do so. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Would you please reconsider? | Dec 13, 2013 |
esther tanuadji wrote:
I haven't given any entries yet on the BB. I'm not about to do so.
You have your reasons, I'm sure, but it would be a great service to future translators so they don't get taken in by this guy.
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