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Lösungskorridor
PE-VW-syst.
Dec 31, 2023 05:44
4 mos ago
52 viewers *
German term

ab dem x. Jahr

German to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s)
Ab Ende oder ab Anfang? How do you guys understand it?

E.g.
Ab dem 3. Jahr erhöht sich die Miete/der Gehalt um y%.
Ab dem 1. Jahr erhöht sich…
Ab dem 16. (Lebens-)Jahr darf man…

The first example MIGHT mean "ab Anfang des 3. Jahres".
Surely the second means "ab Ende des..."?
The third must mean AFTER the 16th birthday, i.e. AFTER 16 years, beginning at the start of the 17th year...

Is there one solution for all?
Very curious.
C

PS: I also posted this as German mono:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/german/law-contracts/7167989-ab-d...
Proposed translations (English)
4 +1 From the beginning of the sixteenth year onwards
4 From the age of x
3 as of the x anniversary date vs. from the 16th birthday onwards

Discussion

Darin Fitzpatrick Mar 26:
Ambiguity in = ambiguity out The difficulty is that the original statements are indeed ambiguous, so the translation is going to be ambiguous as well. Adding "beginning of" or "end of" when these are not present in the original is not accurate.

Sometimes we have to translate what the author says without knowing what the author means.
Cilian O'Tuama (asker) Jan 6:
Björn Take up as much space as you like - whether someone else chimes in or not.
Björn Vrooman Jan 4:
To let you know... ...I've removed three d-box posts (from 2 January). I'm still hoping someone else might chime in so I don't want to take up too much space here.

Best
Björn Vrooman Jan 3:
A Staffelmiete example:
"Im Rahmen einer Modernisierungsvereinbarung hatten die Parteien folgende Staffelmietvereinbarung getroffen...ab Wiederbezug der sanierten Wohnung für die Dauer von 4 Jahren (48 Monaten): 4,11 Euro pro Quadratmeter und Monat; ab dem 5. Jahr (49. Monat) nach Wiederbezug für die Dauer von 2 Jahren (24 Monaten): 5,11 Euro pro Quadratmeter und Monat, ab dem 7. Jahr (72. Monat) nach Wiederbezug für die Dauer von 2 Jahren (24 Monaten): 6,14 Euro pro Quadratmeter und Monat...nach Wiederbezug gelten die mietrechtlichen Regelungen des BGB."
https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/recht/mieturteile/11015...

And a "Randziffer" (Rechtsliteratur):
"An den Verletzten V sollen von 'heute" an für einen Zeitraum von 4 Jahren Renten iHv monatlich 1.000 EUR gezahlt werden.

Nach dem 4. (also ab dem 5.) Jahr sind monatlich nur noch 500 EUR bis zum 20. Jahr zu berücksichtigen,
nach dem 20. (also ab dem 21.) für dann noch 5 Jahre monatlich 100 EUR."
https://www.haufe.de/recht/deutsches-anwalt-office-premium/1...

Not much wiggle room here.

Best
Björn Vrooman Jan 3:
I know this because you'll find the complete wording, including "vollendet" in SGB VIII § 24:
"(1) Ein Kind, das das erste Lebensjahr noch nicht vollendet hat, ist in einer Einrichtung oder in Kindertagespflege zu fördern, wenn...
(2) Ein Kind, das das erste Lebensjahr vollendet hat, hat bis zur Vollendung des dritten Lebensjahres Anspruch auf frühkindliche Förderung in einer Tageseinrichtung oder in Kindertagespflege."
https://datenbank.nwb.de/Dokument/534036_24/

And this is how it's mostly done when it comes to age; even if not stated, the bit about "vollendet" is implicit.

However, this is absolutely not the same for contracts (which is why I think the age example is a bit unfortunate here). You always start counting at 1, that is, "1. Vertragsjahr" and "ab dem X. Jahr" equals "im X. Jahr" unless you explicitly state that the year needs to be "vollendet." Here's a court order breaking it down:
https://openjur.de/u/320472.html

It says: "1.-3. Jahr (36 Monate)...4.-6. Jahr (36 Monate)...7.-9. Jahr (36 Monate)...nach 9 Jahren sind angespart...für jedes weitere Jahr ab dem 10. Jahr (12 Monate)...nach 10 Jahren [etc.]"

It's (almost) always the same.

[...]
Björn Vrooman Jan 3:
@Lancashireman It wasn't really that inconclusive, considering I found the source (see my last d-box entry) and while "technically" incorrect, the issue is that the further you get from "1. Lebensjahr," the more fluid the concept becomes in German. Here's another ex.:
"Ein typischer Karriereverlauf mit Aufnahme des Vorbereitungsdienstes nach Abschluss der Schulbildung ergäbe im 30. Lebensjahr folgenden Vergleich mit einer Einkommensdifferenz von 245,63 € monatlich."
https://www.landtag.ltsh.de/infothek/wahl20/drucks/00900/dru...

You might think they're talking about someone who's 29 years old, but, no, the table says "30 Jahre". And that's not the only example I can find.

Going by what the German Bundestag says...
https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/569574/caa1dd6c901084...
...you get:

"Betreuung und Förderung von Kindern im ersten Lebensjahr"
> There's your "first year of life."

"Betreuung und Förderung von ein- bis dreijährigen Kindern"
> This one is followed by "Ab dem ersten bis dritten Lebensjahr" - because what they mean here is "ab dem vollendeten X. Lebensjahr."

[...]
Cilian O'Tuama (asker) Jan 3:
Interesting read, LMan! Merci.
Lancashireman Jan 2:
Lively (but inconclusive) discussion here https://www.proz.com/kudoz/german-to-english/music/6844129-d...
Cilian O'Tuama (asker) Jan 2:
But Björn "From 16 on" means in your 17th year. When you reach 16 years of age, you've completed 16 years and enter your 17th year.
Thanks.
Cilian O'Tuama (asker) Jan 2:
The actual example appears as a bullet point... in a contract:
"Mieterhöhung ab dem 4. Jahr um X€ und ab dem 7. Jahr um Y€."

I wondered if it's ambiguous and asked myself what would "ab dem 1. Jahr" mean. To me it would appear logical that it means AFTER the first year has elapsed. It wouldn't make much sense for it to mean the rent increases as soon as you move in.

And then I thought of the Lebensjahr example, which would support "after", i.e. ab Ende.
philgoddard Dec 31, 2023:
I would have said "starting in", but then how would you translate "ab dem 1. Jahr erhöht sich"? That doesn't make sense to me. Is it a real example? It gets only one hit, which may be a translation from Turkish.
Björn Vrooman Dec 31, 2023:
Cilian Almost thought you were going to repost this so I've prepared the following:
"The Department of History also offers small-class opportunities starting in the first year..."
https://www.uoguelph.ca/arts/history/undergraduate-programs/...

"Career and professional development opportunities starting in the first year"
https://www.uvm.edu/business/center-student-success

"Preparing for college means setting goals, staying focused...—starting in the first year of high school."
https://www.sbiainc.com/resource-center/lifestyle/countdown-...

"Newly tenured faculty members will receive a $2,000 salary increase starting in the first year of their tenure."
https://jobs.chronicle.com/job/37582235/assistant-professor-...

Even clearer:
"Full-time Calendar Year employees covered by this Agreement shall earn vacation
as follows:
Two (2) weeks starting in the first year of employment;
Three (3) weeks after FIVE (5) years of employment;
Four (4) weeks after TEN (10) years of employment"
https://www.nh.gov/pelrb/collective/documents/goffstown_educ...

"starting in the first year of" = ab dem 1. Jahr

Best

Proposed translations

2 hrs

as of the x anniversary date vs. from the 16th birthday onwards

A similar interpretational problem has cropped up before, as in the first web ref.

I think anniversary date would be the hallowed Anglo-irish drafting formula and technique used - and 'anniversaire' doubling in FRE for birthday usable for 'ab dem 16. (Lebens-)Jahr'

I've perused the German mono replies, though can't see the oft-misunderstood preposition that would trigger such 'increase' : 6 Monate im voraus eine Mieterhöhung zum x. Jahr ankündigen > announce 6 months in advance a rent increase effective (in) year x vs. das Mietverhältnis kündigen : give 6 months' notice to quit expiring = taking effect (!) in year x (echoes of Solicitors' legal action against my Central London translation office over a lease in Ffm terminated 6 months before time 'am' date of the notice instead of 'zum' lease end date).

So, take Counsel from the agency or client in point.
Example sentence:

First Anniversary Date means the date which is twelve (12) calendar months following the Original Effective Date

Reference:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german-to-english/law-patents/558291-ab-dem-vertragsunterzeichnung-folgendem-jahr.html

http://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/first-anniversary-date

Note from asker:
And if it's just: Ab dem 3. Jahr erhöht sich die Miete/der Gehalt um y%? I.e. not LEBENSjahr?
Something went wrong...
+1
18 hrs

From the beginning of the sixteenth year onwards

Very apposite as we're within 10 minutes of the beginning of a new year, and Cilian's understanding of each of the three meanings is absolutely spot on, as is Karlo Heppner's agree and comment on the other question;

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 2 hrs (2024-01-01 08:01:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry Cilian, you're right;it's from the beginning of the SEVENteenth year. Happy New Year.
Note from asker:
E.g. the legal drinking age here is 16, i.e. when you've reached your 16th birthday, so it's from the beginning of your 17th year. Hence my confusion.
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : Cilian's actual text says 'Mieterhöhung ab dem 4. Jahr', so the rent increases at the beginning of the fourth year. You don't need to say 'onwards'.
4 days
Yep thanks; kudos to you!
Something went wrong...
86 days

From the age of x

Specifically for the "Lebensjahr" usage.

More generally, "From the xth year" works.
Something went wrong...
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