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déformation [opinions please]
Goodhart's Law 1975

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

soyé

English translation:

rolled

Added to glossary by Charles Davis
Sep 28, 2016 18:36
7 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term

soyé

French to English Tech/Engineering Electronics / Elect Eng electrical installations
les câbles seront posés sur des chemins de câbles galvanisés à chaud et à bords soyés

Now all logic dictates that this must mean that the edges are rounded so as not to damage the cables; but this is not the term I am used to finding for that.

I have found the verb 'soyer' used in connection with welding, which clearly seems to have some connection, but the EN term used, 'joggled' doesn't seem to be appropriate for cable trays. I have a suspicion that maybe it is meant to be a 'beaded edge' (i.e. rolled or folded over), which in a sort of tenuous way could link it to the idea of a weld 'bead'???!

But I have not been able to find any actual confirmation of this hunch, and I am wary of over-translating.

By the way, the FR in my document comes from a North African source, so it uses some quite odd expressions at times, and is prone to quite a few typos as well. None of which helps much!
Proposed translations (English)
3 rolled / rounded
4 joggled / joggle bent
2 smooth finish
Change log

Oct 5, 2016 21:44: Charles Davis Created KOG entry

Discussion

Tony M (asker) Oct 5, 2016:
MANY THANKS TO ALL! I just wanted to add a word of thanks to everyone who has contributed here; it's been most interesting and enlightening, and I really appreciate your taking the time to contribute to my question.
DLyons Sep 29, 2016:
Not very relevant But Didier's dialect sense has a long history (see P559 below). And "un soyer" is well-known but of doubtful etymology.

%0 Book
%T Glossaire de la langue Romaine (etc.) Contenant l'etymologie et la signification des mots usites dans les 11. -16. siecles (etc.) et un discours sur l'origine, les progres et les variations de la langue francoise (etc.)-Paris, Warce 1808-1820
%A de Roquefort, J.B.B.
%A ++, M.
%A Auguis, P.R.
%U https://books.google.fr/books?id=etVLAAAAcAAJ
%D 1808
%I Warce
Charles Davis Sep 29, 2016:
swage There seems to be general agreement that this comes from OF souage 'ornamental border' = ModF suage. But since I can find nothing on the etymology of soyer and I haven't got the requisite reference works at home, I don't know whether it's related or not.
Didier Fourcot Sep 29, 2016:
joggling = soyage en Z ? From the discussion, it looks like the standard reference dictionaries like
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/services/lexique-bilingu...
consider only one meaning of "soyage", the one called "double" or "en Z"
http://www.mate-france.fr/medias/files/pliage-trumpf-wila.pd...

so for the other type of "soyage" mentioned here we have to find a term that is not in dictionaries yet, or at least not in the ones I found, I like "swaged" that I saw most often in the meaning of "serti" but without more details or picture of the edges, we may consider "rolled", "bent", "rounded" as suggested by Charles
Tony M (asker) Sep 29, 2016:
@ Chris Well done! That one hadn't occurred to me, but the possible connection is nearly highlighted in this article, which mentions OF 'souage' — though I'm not entirely sure about the connections they make. HOWEVER, it does mention the notion of a 'decorative edge', which rather nicely brings together the 'rolled / beaded edge' and the notion of 'joggling' (in what I presume would have been its original sense of 'wiggly')

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=swage&allowed_in_fr...
chris collister Sep 29, 2016:
It may not be too much of a stretch to suggest an etymological link between "soyage" and "swage". In this particular case, on the basis of Charles' excellent refs. it certainly seems to refer to rolled edges (i.e. the latter meaning), which have the double advantage of providing a smooth surface for the protection of humans and cables, and additional stiffness for the tray.
Charles Davis Sep 29, 2016:
@Didier The first kind, "double soyage", is called joggling, but not the second kind, which is the one we have here. This is why you won't find references to cable trays with joggled edges.

As your own Wikipedia reference says: "Joggling, also known as joggle bending, is an offset bending process in which the two opposite bends are each less than 90°."

Another definition of joggle applied to sheet metal: "A small offset near the edge of a piece of sheet metal. It allows one sheet of metal to overlap another sheet while maintaining a flush surface."
See illustration
http://www.datwiki.net/page.php?id=4580&find=joggle (sheet m...
Didier Fourcot Sep 29, 2016:
@Tony See page 14 of this thesis:
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00840726/document
I had not read the discussion, just seen the answers, you had guessed right first, but "soyage" has two different meanings: parallel shifting of a sheet metal edge for welding (should be called "double soyage", sometimes "soyage en Z") and rolling or bending an edge at more than 90° (up to parallel back bending)
Tony M (asker) Sep 28, 2016:
@ Donal I don't believe so; for one thing, they are talking about the 'bords' (not the 'bouts'), and at the level of detail we are discussing in this document, I doubt they'd be going into quite that much detail about actual constructional techniques.
And for another, cable trays are rarely welded together, a simple fishplate join and bolting is often all that is needed.
DLyons Sep 28, 2016:
@Tony OK I see what you mean, I was reading it as the cable raceways being soldered together. They often are done side-by-side as well as lengthways - might that be your geometry?
Tony M (asker) Sep 28, 2016:
@ Donal Thanks, yes, in welding, that's what it would be, indeed; but I fail to see how the same thing can be said of the 'bords' of these cable trays; had it been something about welding the lengths end-to-end, I might have understood it — but that doesn't seem to be what they are talking about here.

In metalworking, we used to talk about a 'safe edge' — but without knowing if this is simply machined to be rounded, or actually folded over, I'm a little worried about either under- or over-translating.
DLyons Sep 28, 2016:
Isn't this a rebated or offset lap joint? Diagram at
https://books.google.fr/books?id=B1zKC1koJ3UC&pg=PA12

Proposed translations

3 hrs
Selected

rolled / rounded

I am no kind of expert on cable trays. There may be a difference between rounded and rolled edges, though they look pretty much the same to my eye. But I'm pretty sure it's one of these, and I think "rolled" is probably the one. Anyway, if I'm wrong about that the references may put you on the right track.

The following references are a great help in establishing what "bords soyés" are. The first two are both from the same company and are illustrated. It's well worth opening the files and having a look at the pictures.

"Haute résistance : Plus épaisse, bord « soyé », la dalle la plus résistante du marché." (p. 5, p. 7 of doc)
"Bords soyés non coupants" (p. 8, p. 10 of doc)
See pictures on both these pages.
http://www.cestray.com/pdf/_bareme_CES_2014.pdf

This one's better, the pictures are really clear:
"2- Travail du chemin de câbles (découpes) considérablement facilité et par conséquent accéléré, grâce à l’excellent tenue du métal (épaisseur correcte) et à la parfaite planéité de la dalle : aucune rainure, aucun bossage, aucun pli ne viennent gêner le travail, de plus le bord «soyé» constitue, pour l’outil de coupe, un bord d’attaque épais et rigide." (p. 8, p. 7 of doc)
See also p. 10 (p. 9 of doc)
http://www.cestray.com/pdf/catalogue-FR/2-Chemins-de-cables-...

Also this:
"VIII.7.3. Distribution électrique
Les chemins de câbles seront de type dalle en acier galvanisé perforé à bords roulés (ou soyés), installés dans les plénums des sous-plafonds ou en apparent."
https://www.marches-publics.gouv.fr/index.php5?page=entrepri...

Well, the last one does seem to suggest soyé means roulé (though I admit they could be alternatives rather than synonyms). But pictures of rolled edge cable trays where you can see the form of the edges do look the same to me. Then again "round edge" look similar too. Anyway, there you are; I think that's as far as I can take it.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2016-09-28 23:55:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or how about return flange? That seems to be what this type of edge that's folded over inwards is often called.

"Legrand's Swifts range of medium duty return flange cable tray"
http://www.discount-electrical.co.uk/section.php/109167/1/me...

"Medium Duty Cable Tray
With a 25mm Hole Punched Return Flange Side Edge x 3 Meter Lengths"
https://www.directchannel.uk.com/medium-duty-cable-tray

"Heavy Duty Return Flange Straight Tray"
http://www.vantrunk.com/products/cable-tray/lengths/15/heavy...

"100mm Return Flange Tray 25mm Deep (Galv To BS2989)"
http://tamlex.co.uk/index.php/products/steel-cable-tray/25mm...
Note from asker:
(in this particular instance, it wasn't a 'return flange' — I know exactly what that is, but this instance was different)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Many thanks, Charles! In the end, I used 'rolled edge', which seemed to fit my context best."
1 hr

smooth finish

I'm guessing "soyé" is local dialect or poorly written soyeux, i.e. smooth as a baby's bum.
Note from asker:
Thanks a lot, Chris, for your input. On this occasion, I think it has a slightly more specific meaning.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Didier Fourcot : Not a poor writing, the term exists and the meaning in dialect is very different: http://chapellerablais.pagesperso-orange.fr/site archives/ht...
16 hrs
Thanks for the info.
Something went wrong...
17 hrs

joggled / joggle bent

En français:
https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/soyage
équivalent anglais:
https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/joggle#en

Exemples en usinage des bords:
http://www.slawinski.fr/fabrication/soyage/
et en relevage des bords:
https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00840726/document

joggling ou joggle bending sur de la tôle, on remarquera la pince à soyer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bending_(metalworking)#Jogglin...
aussi vue sur les opérations de tôlerie pour souder deux tôles avec recouvrement:
http://ma204.free.fr/dossiers-restauration/soudure/
Note from asker:
Merci beaucoup, Didier ! On this occasion, I think Charles's comment is right, and the usage in my context is a slightly different one.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Charles Davis : Very enlightening on soyer/soyage, but joggle means only the first kind: two opposite bends producing a parallel offset. These edges are not joggled.
26 mins
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