| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Which languages don't have a gender system? Автор темы: Sara Senft
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Ata Arif 
Великобритания
Local time: 10:00
курдский => английский
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In Kurdish we do not have the gender problem as the same pronoun could be used for both sexes.
[Edited at 2009-10-05 14:19 GMT]
| | | | Paul Dixon
Бразилия
Local time: 06:00
португальский => английский
+ ...
| The situation of Portuguese | Oct 5, 2009 |
Portuguese is an interesting case as although nearly all nouns are either masculine or feminine (even inanimate objects, "a mesa" (table) being feminine and "o barco" (boat) being masculine), some nouns are used for both, the only distinction being the article used. Examples: o artista / a artista (artist); o estudante / a estudante (student). These are called in Portuguese "comuns de dois gêneros" (common of two genders).
We also have "epicenos", where the form (including the pron... See more Portuguese is an interesting case as although nearly all nouns are either masculine or feminine (even inanimate objects, "a mesa" (table) being feminine and "o barco" (boat) being masculine), some nouns are used for both, the only distinction being the article used. Examples: o artista / a artista (artist); o estudante / a estudante (student). These are called in Portuguese "comuns de dois gêneros" (common of two genders).
We also have "epicenos", where the form (including the pronoun) is the same irrespective of gender, and the words "macho" and "fêmea" are used to make the distinction. Example: a cobra macho (he-snake), a cobra fêmea (she-snake).
Then there are "sobrecomuns", where there is no change either. Example: a vítima (victim), the form is the same if the victim is a man.
So English does seem easy by comparison!
In contrast, the most complicated language in this regard seems to be Slovenian which not only has three genders (masculine, neuter and feminine) but three numbers (singular, dual and plural) as well. ▲ Collapse
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Although we do have two neuters (n- and t-words), but that's just to confuse foreigners. There's, to my knowledge, no easy way of determining which neuter a noun belongs to (those who've studied Swedish grammar more than me might disagree, my grammatical in-depth studies were in English).
As a native speaker I can easily hear whether a noun is n or t, even if it's a foreign word that I "incorporate" into Swedish (often necessary in finance). So the English "spread" when used in Sw... See more Although we do have two neuters (n- and t-words), but that's just to confuse foreigners. There's, to my knowledge, no easy way of determining which neuter a noun belongs to (those who've studied Swedish grammar more than me might disagree, my grammatical in-depth studies were in English).
As a native speaker I can easily hear whether a noun is n or t, even if it's a foreign word that I "incorporate" into Swedish (often necessary in finance). So the English "spread" when used in Swedish is most definitely an n-noun. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Viktoria Gimbe
Канада
Local time: 05:00
английский => французский
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Elizabeth Rudin wrote:
Hungarian pronouns are not gender-specific, either.
This can be quite frustrating, particularly when I translate Hungarian hospital discharge summaries/medical reports of patients participating in clinical studies.
I have always thought it was great that there is absolutely no gender system in Hungarian--it makes the grammar much cleaner. This doesn't make Hungarian a poor language, as the incredibly rich Hungarian vocabulary (how many different words are there to express love in Hungarian?) makes up for this.
I can feel your pain, though. You just gave me a nice example of situations where a missing gender system is a hindrance rather than an advantage.
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Amy Duncan (X)
Бразилия
Local time: 06:00
португальский => английский
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Henrik Pipoyan wrote:
It's still more interesting to know the reason why at all gender distinction exists in languages, and why some languages can get along with it, while others cannot. As a child I was told that it's the result of personalizing all phenomena and objects, that is, in very old times men believed that all objects around us have spirits and are living beings -- I forgot the name of this phenomenon; it should be something related to pantheism. While this seems to be a logical explanation, I still have a feeling that there must be some other explanation. Otherwise, why should it have been persisted this long.
Isn't it called "animism?"
| | | | Arnaud HERVE
Франция
Local time: 11:00
английский => французский
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IngridS wrote:
The only one I can think of is Japanese
Mmmh yes but it's so full of gender tones and expressions....
| | | | | same in French | Oct 6, 2009 |
Paul Dixon wrote:
Portuguese is an interesting case as although nearly all nouns are either masculine or feminine (even inanimate objects, "a mesa" (table) being feminine and "o barco" (boat) being masculine), some nouns are used for both, the only distinction being the article used. Examples: o artista / a artista (artist); o estudante / a estudante (student).
We officially have only masculine and feminine, but many words can be used for both.
For the "pink" thing, I think it is beyond linguistic, and a fairly recent thing. I have some friends who were seriously worried because their little boy's favourite colour was purple (pinkish purple). I think this is fairly general among western or westernized cultures. But would they have reacted the same a few hundred years ago? It depends where, and when.
*****
http://geraldineoudin.com
[Modifié le 2009-10-06 02:43 GMT]
| | | | | I agree with Arnaud | Oct 6, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote: IngridS wrote:
The only one I can think of is Japanese Mmmh yes but it's so full of gender tones and expressions....
Many people believe the Japanese language doesn't have a gender system.
Well guess what?
It does, though in a much more subtle way than many languages, because it has nothing to do with grammar. Nouns and adjective do not have a feminine or masculine form, however the whole language does.
Women have their way of speaking, men have theirs. They do not chose the same verbs endinds and expressions. I would say that women tend to use a more polite way of speaking in general (well, not in Shibuya, I know).
What is interesting is that when two men are at work, the dominant one usually speak like a man, and the other one tends to speak in a more feminine way.
That says a lot about the position of women in Japan.
However, even though I am a (moderate) feminist, if I started to speak like a man people who just stare at me (and thing : she's just a foreigner, she doesn't get it...but it sounds so ugly!). So have been watching myself very carefully not to mimic some of the expressions my partner uses all the time. At least, not in public...
However, if you are in a pub with some friends and a drunk salaryman bothers you, which happens rarely but does happen, sometimes speaking like a man is the only option that you have. And it works wonderfully well.
[Modifié le 2009-10-06 02:48 GMT]
[Modifié le 2009-10-06 03:06 GMT]
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earlyesther
Local time: 16:00
индонезийский => английский
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| bahasa Indonesia | Oct 6, 2009 |
Hello everyone,
I can say for sure that bahasa Indonesia doesn't have a gender system. It doesn't even have tenses and plural form. We never differentiate feminine/masculine/plural/singular noun and we always use the same verb for future/present/past. Yet, there is a book stated that this simplicity exists because this language hasn't been developed well....
here is a quote:
Indonesian still has nothing that will be regarded as grammar by anybody wh... See more Hello everyone,
I can say for sure that bahasa Indonesia doesn't have a gender system. It doesn't even have tenses and plural form. We never differentiate feminine/masculine/plural/singular noun and we always use the same verb for future/present/past. Yet, there is a book stated that this simplicity exists because this language hasn't been developed well....
here is a quote:
Indonesian still has nothing that will be regarded as grammar by anybody who’s done battle with Latin or Russian. There are suffixes and prefixes aplenty, neat and regular, that convert verbs into nouns and give verbs additional meanings and the like, but no inflections according to person, number, tense, aspect, or anything else.
(How to Learn Any Language Quickly, Easily, Inexpensively, Enjoyably and On Your Own
by Barry Farber, Founder of the Language Club/Nationally Syndicated Talk Show Host) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tim Drayton
Кипр
Local time: 12:00
турецкий => английский
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| Noun classes in Bantu languages | Oct 6, 2009 |
I am fascinated by the Bantu languages which - as opposed to Indo-European languages with their maximum of three noun classes (the genders 'masculine', 'feminine' and 'neuter') - can have up to 22 different noun classes. In the words of a learner of Zulu:
http://www.phrasebase.com/forum/read.php?TID=10070
"One aspect of Zulu which is pretty damn hard to get to... See more I am fascinated by the Bantu languages which - as opposed to Indo-European languages with their maximum of three noun classes (the genders 'masculine', 'feminine' and 'neuter') - can have up to 22 different noun classes. In the words of a learner of Zulu:
http://www.phrasebase.com/forum/read.php?TID=10070
"One aspect of Zulu which is pretty damn hard to get to grips with is the system of NOUN CLASSES. It works a bit like the European language system of masculine/feminine and neuter, except there are many more than three classes, and there needs to be agreement between the noun class and the verb or adjective.
As was explained before
USipho uyahleka (Sipho laughs)
Abantu bayahleka (the people laugh)"
You can find a table here showing how noun class concord works in this lanuage:
http://africanlanguages.com/zulu/noun_class_table.html
I wonder how difficult it is for a foreigner to learn a Bantu language. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tim Drayton
Кипр
Local time: 12:00
турецкий => английский
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| I thought Kurdish had two genders | Oct 6, 2009 |
Ata Arif wrote:
In Kurdish we do not have the gender problem as the same pronoun could be used for both sexes.
[Edited at 2009-10-05 14:19 GMT]
I cannot claim to know a great deal about Kurdish, but I thought (at least in the variety of the language known as 'Kurmanji' in Turkey) there was a masculine and feminine gender. Doesn't the word 'mal' mean 'house' when feminine, and 'property' when masculine?
| | | | | Why do we refer to ships as "she?" | Oct 7, 2009 |
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I think you are right about English not having a FORMAL gender system, but I have one question. We sometimes refer to cars and ships as "she" or "her", but is this informal? I've heard sentences like "start her up" meaning "start the engine of the car". And this is grammatically correct, isn't it?
As far as I can tell, it is not slang but rather thought to be a remnant from Old English, which supposedly still had grammatical gender: "Old English was a much more inflected language than contemporary English. It was characterized by strong and weak verbs; a dual number for pronouns (for example, a form for we two as well as for we); two different declensions of adjectives; four declensions of nouns; and grammatical distinctions of gender." (See http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564210_2/English_Language.html .) Apparently, the word "ship" is feminine in most Indo-European languages (see http://www.wisegeek.com/why-are-boats-called-she.htm for other theories).
The Naval Historical Center has this to say about it: "It has always been customary to personify certain inanimate objects and attribute to them characteristics peculiar to living creatures. Thus, things without life are often spoken of as having a sex. Some objects are regarded as masculine. The sun, winter, and death are often personified in this way. Others are regarded as feminine, especially those things that are dear to us. The earth as mother Earth is regarded as the common maternal parent of all life. In languages that use gender for common nouns, boats, ships, and other vehicles almost invariably use a feminine form. Likewise, early seafarers spoke of their ships in the feminine gender for the close dependence they had on their ships for life and sustenance." (See http://www.history.navy.mil/trivia/trivia01.htm#anchor253178 .)
I also got a chuckle out of this explanation:
"There is always a great deal of bustle around her.
There is usually a gang of men about.
She has waist and stays.
It takes a lot of paint to keep her looking good.
It is not the initial expense that breaks you, it is the upkeep
She can be all decked out.
It takes an experienced man to handle her correctly.
Without a man at the helm, she is uncontrollable.
She shows her topsides, hides her bottom.
When coming into port, always heads for the buoys." (See http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/18/messages/573.html .)
My question is, who decides? (Also see http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/sailing/03/20/lloyds.sex/ .)
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Paul Dixon
Бразилия
Local time: 06:00
португальский => английский
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| Ships in Portuguese | Oct 7, 2009 |
In response to Mr Franssen (can't find the "beta" on my keyboard), in Portuguese most means of transport are masculine, including maritime transport: o barco (boat), o navio (ship), o petroleiro (oil tanker), o porta-aviões (aircraft carrier), o iate (yacht). The only exceptions seem to be "a nau", an old word for a ship used in Camões' days, and "a canoa" (canoe).
About cars, my father always referred to the family car as "she" and even gave the car a name - invariably Bessie, do... See more In response to Mr Franssen (can't find the "beta" on my keyboard), in Portuguese most means of transport are masculine, including maritime transport: o barco (boat), o navio (ship), o petroleiro (oil tanker), o porta-aviões (aircraft carrier), o iate (yacht). The only exceptions seem to be "a nau", an old word for a ship used in Camões' days, and "a canoa" (canoe).
About cars, my father always referred to the family car as "she" and even gave the car a name - invariably Bessie, don't know why. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | If no noun classification system, then declensions... except English | Oct 7, 2009 |
When I was in university, I did a bit of research on the typology of noun classification.
Grammatical gender is one type of noun classification, bit it's not the only one. Many languages have noun classes, or else use noun classifiers (like Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, ...).
At the time, I had come to the conclusion that when a language does not exhibit any type of noun classification, it will have a declension system. The only exception to the rule I had found was En... See more When I was in university, I did a bit of research on the typology of noun classification.
Grammatical gender is one type of noun classification, bit it's not the only one. Many languages have noun classes, or else use noun classifiers (like Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, ...).
At the time, I had come to the conclusion that when a language does not exhibit any type of noun classification, it will have a declension system. The only exception to the rule I had found was English. My professor did not object to my conclusion. There may be other languages like that, but it has to be pretty rare. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tim Drayton
Кипр
Local time: 12:00
турецкий => английский
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| Interesting observation | Oct 8, 2009 |
Alexandre Coutu wrote:
When I was in university, I did a bit of research on the typology of noun classification.
Grammatical gender is one type of noun classification, bit it's not the only one. Many languages have noun classes, or else use noun classifiers (like Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, ...).
At the time, I had come to the conclusion that when a language does not exhibit any type of noun classification, it will have a declension system. The only exception to the rule I had found was English. My professor did not object to my conclusion. There may be other languages like that, but it has to be pretty rare.
This is a very interesting observation and I am going to see if I can come up with a counterexample (apart from English).
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