| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | KudoZ is not a shadow of what it used to be. Thread poster: Teresa Duran-Sanchez
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Gina W
United States
Local time: 20:44
Member (2003)
French to English
| This makes perfect sense to me | Sep 7, 2008 |
While it is true that people can remove the KudoZ forum from their recent topics in translator forums, it also makes sense to remove certain threads from being featured on the home page. It's not like it's difficult to navigate to this part of the forums for those who are interested, but for those who may get tired of constant complaining threads (which is quite common in the KudoZ forum), the tone of such threads certainly make it inappropriate to be featured on the home page.
| | | | | I guess a new forum rule is on order | Sep 7, 2008 |
gad wrote:
It's not like it's difficult to navigate to this part of the forums for those who are interested, but for those who may get tired of constant complaining threads (which is quite common in the KudoZ forum), the tone of such threads certainly make it inappropriate to be featured on the home page.
Then, I guess the only solution to the problem is to add a new forum rule:
Only happy thoughts are allowed in the forum. Threads that contain thoughts other than happy will be removed from the home page.
| | | | | Shadows and shadowing | Sep 7, 2008 |
Here’s a thought: some of our excellent contributors may simply participate less now NOT because they are fed up with the low quality on ProZ, but because they were never “translators by profession”, but rather chose to pursue translating on the side, for a while. They have moved on to practice their original professions, i.e. law, medicine, etc. I know for a fact that this is true in several cases.
At the same time I’ve recently noticed quite a few new users and members com... See more Here’s a thought: some of our excellent contributors may simply participate less now NOT because they are fed up with the low quality on ProZ, but because they were never “translators by profession”, but rather chose to pursue translating on the side, for a while. They have moved on to practice their original professions, i.e. law, medicine, etc. I know for a fact that this is true in several cases.
At the same time I’ve recently noticed quite a few new users and members come in, (GER- ENG/ENG-GER) who are enthusiastic, knowledgeable, and well-educated. These people are a great new asset.
Yes, there are individual askers who seem to be unresponsive, not interested in the KudoZ glossary, sort of in-and-out, and then back in again the next day. They may, at some point, change their ways and decide to become more involved or conscientious, or they may never change their attitude and behaviour – but that’s not really my problem, that’s theirs. I personally don’t feel inspired or capable of weeding out unprofessionalism, preventing stupid questions, or educating others by setting more rules.
But what I feel I CAN do is sweep in front of my own door, keep my own house tidy, and welcome others in. Maybe they like the design and copy it
johanna
[Edited at 2008-09-07 21:43] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Response to Andy | Sep 8, 2008 |
Andy Watkinson wrote: Henry D wrote:
Share your specific data, folks, and I will share ours! Mr. Dotterer, Kim Metzger is not a child in the school playground and neither are you. In the absence of any "smiley" to indicate you're joking, I find this rather childish retort ("I'll show you mine if you show me yours first") when asked a serious, specific question to be not only disappointing but rude. Neither do I think it makes good business sense to talk down to the very people who are responsible for your income. (You mentioned elsewhere that ProZ main funding comes from membership fees, not advertising). More replies from you in a similar vein will only lead people to leave, rather than pay to have their intelligence insulted. Andy
Consider there to be a smiley there. I mean, I am serious about this exercise but I am certainly not talking down to Kim (who I often disagree with, but who I also know and respect.)
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| Come on, play the game. | Sep 8, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
As you say, many of us have been criticizing KudoZ quality for years.
Yes, but never are there specifics. I mean, what, exactly, are you thinking of when you say that quality has gone down? That there are not enough good questions? That there are too many bad ones? That there are not enough good answers? That there are too many bad ones? That the glossary entries are inaccurate? All of the above?
And, although I know this may be too much, can you characterize any of this with metrics? What % of questions or answers are bad?
Come on, now that we have some data to compare it to, you critics should have the courage of your convictions. Don't worry, the data is not all rosy! I said it was consistent, I did not say it was good!
Oh yeah, almost forgot: *
* Not sarcastic. I am starting to like this thread...
If you concluded that KudoZ is satisfactory
I most certainly did not conclude that from the review. All I am saying is that there was no evidence of a downward trend.
The things we have been working on in KudoZ since the review correspond to the areas that the data suggested were most in need of improvement.
| | | | | The ball is in your hands... | Sep 8, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
Come on, play the game.
We can't... the ball is in your hands. Several of us have asked your about what parameters and methods were used for the survey. It's your turn Henry!
| | | | | a few answers | Sep 8, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
I mean, what, exactly, are you thinking of when you say that quality has gone down? That there are not enough good questions? That there are too many bad ones? That there are not enough good answers? That there are too many bad ones? That the glossary entries are inaccurate? All of the above?
All the questions above have already been answered in many threads before :
- A bad question is a question that was already asked, but the asker did not check the glossary
- A bad question is a question whose answer can be found in any bilingual dictionary
- A bad question is a question whose answer can be found in a few seconds on Google
- A bad question is a question that comes without context
- A bad answer does not provide any explanation and/or reference
- Glossary entries are inaccurate when people enter "whatever term (see context) -> cf below" i.e. do not edit their question/answer if needed
- Glossary entries are inaccurate when people enter "whatever term -> whatever term + explanation of the term in brackets
- Glossary entries are inaccurate when people enter very long sentences
- Glossary entries are inaccurate when people enter a term taken from an expression/idiom instead of the whole expression/idiom
And, although I know this may be too much, can you characterize any of this with metrics? What % of questions or answers are bad?
No ! How could I do that ? I have no time and no tool to do that ...
Stéphanie
| | | | | Thanks, Stéphanie, but... | Sep 8, 2008 |
Stéphanie Soudais wrote: Henry D wrote:
I mean, what, exactly, are you thinking of when you say that quality has gone down? That there are not enough good questions? That there are too many bad ones? That there are not enough good answers? That there are too many bad ones? That the glossary entries are inaccurate? All of the above? All the questions above have already been answered in many threads before : - A bad question is a question that was already asked, but the asker did not check the glossary - A bad question is a question whose answer can be found in any bilingual dictionary - A bad question is a question whose answer can be found in a few seconds on Google - A bad question is a question that comes without context - A bad answer does not provide any explanation and/or reference - Glossary entries are inaccurate when people enter "whatever term (see context) -> cf below" i.e. do not edit their question/answer if needed - Glossary entries are inaccurate when people enter "whatever term -> whatever term + explanation of the term in brackets - Glossary entries are inaccurate when people enter very long sentences - Glossary entries are inaccurate when people enter a term taken from an expression/idiom instead of the whole expression/idiom
Thanks for your reply, Stéphanie, but I do know all that. If you reread my question, you will see that it is directed at those who bemoan a "deterioration" in KudoZ quality (always without specifics.) (I don't think you are among them, Stéphanie.) I mean, I know what a bad question is, what I am wondering is what exactly is getting worse, trending down, etc.
I find it interesting that after years of complaining in the forums about quality "plummeting", under the threat of real data, no one is willing to step forward and make concrete claims as to what they mean when they say that. I am not saying there is not a deterioration... there may one of some sort. But no one seems to be able to be specific about what is "plummeting".
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| Just a few off the top of my head | Sep 9, 2008 |
- Increasing number of questions labeled as PRO when the answer to them can easily be found in a generalist dictionary;
- Increasing number of questions where the asker didn't bother to post context and to formulate the question appropriately (this often leads to answerers getting into "fights");
- Increasing number of questions asked by the general public (who may be thinking KudoZ is a free translation service), who don't know how the site works and therefore don't search the gloss... See more - Increasing number of questions labeled as PRO when the answer to them can easily be found in a generalist dictionary;
- Increasing number of questions where the asker didn't bother to post context and to formulate the question appropriately (this often leads to answerers getting into "fights");
- Increasing number of questions asked by the general public (who may be thinking KudoZ is a free translation service), who don't know how the site works and therefore don't search the glossary before posting a redundant question;
- Increasing number of questions where the asker ends up picking the most popular answer, even when it is the worst answer, which ruins the already fragile quality of the glossary (those who search the glossary before posting a question are, in a way, forced to post the question because the existing entries are misleading, clearly wrong or not sufficiently documented).
In my view, KudoZ is the victim of its popularity. At one point, I know it was advertized as a way to get free advice from seasoned translators, not just on the site but elsewhere on the Web as well. This gave the wrong message to people. Many people perceive KudoZ as yet another BabelFish, which may be fun for advertizement purposes, but it hurts the overall quality of the KudoZ glossary. In a sense, translators and site members and users who are regular KudoZ users are paying for ProZ's popularity. I know the intention was good to begin with, but it may be time to admit that it wasn't a good strategy and that this mistake has introduced problems that now need to be dealt with.
If you need practical examples of the problems I listed above, please, Henry, don't hesitate to ask. However, please don't ask me for data - you are the one holding the data. If you shared it here, it may be beneficial for all of us. Then, we would be able to identify the gap between your data and users' general perception of Kudoz, so we'll at least be able to zoom into what really is amiss.
Henry D wrote:
I find it interesting that after years of complaining in the forums about quality "plummeting", under the threat of real data, no one is willing to step forward and make concrete claims as to what they mean when they say that. I am not saying there is not a deterioration... there may one of some sort. But no one seems to be able to be specific about what is "plummeting".
Many of those who complained about KudoZ quality deteriorating posted those threads precisely because they wanted to have ProZ's opinion and maybe some of the information ProZ may have that is not publicly displayed. However, I believe the dominating reason why people regularly post on KudoZ issues is that they would like to see ProZ adress their preoccupations, and so far, I personally haven't seen any evidence of ProZ's willingness to address the issue. Most of the time, site users are debating the issue among themselves, without any intervention from you or other site staff, at times to a point where the subject is dropped off the home page.
To my knowledge, you never really asked the question you are asking in this thread, so, I don't see why you find it interesting that nobody so far answered a question you haven't asked before now. Had you stepped in earlier and asked those users straight up about what they feel is amiss, I am sure many of us would have been glad to reply. But it seems it took literally years before you finally commented, and so far only to tell us that the subject is getting old. I think it will keep getting older and older until you acknowledge the problem and reach out to users to try and fix it. We are not just a bunch of whiners, you know, even if it may appear to you so at times. When stakeholders don't show common interest, there's naught left to do but whining - with perhaps one exception: to stop contributing.
[Edited at 2008-09-09 02:29] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks, Viktoria | Sep 9, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
- Increasing number of questions labeled as PRO when the answer to them can easily be found in a generalist dictionary;
- Increasing number of questions where the asker didn't bother to post context and to formulate the question appropriately (this often leads to answerers getting into "fights");
- Increasing number of questions asked by the general public (who may be thinking KudoZ is a free translation service), who don't know how the site works and therefore don't search the glossary before posting a redundant question;
- Increasing number of questions where the asker ends up picking the most popular answer, even when it is the worst answer, which ruins the already fragile quality of the glossary (those who search the glossary before posting a question are, in a way, forced to post the question because the existing entries are misleading, clearly wrong or not sufficiently documented).
Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for. I'll respond to you directly with some of the data we have relating to the above. (Anyone else care to share?)
... we would be able to identify the gap between your data and users' general perception of Kudoz..
You appear to be assuming that the "users' general perception" of KudoZ is the same as your own. That is not a safe assumption. In fact, the opposite may be the case; the data we have comes directly from general users, and it differs markedly from the opinions that tend to get expressed in the forums.
... so far, I personally haven't seen any evidence of ProZ's willingness to address the issue.
What you personally regard as "the" issue may or may not have been addressed, but you should not suggest that nothing has changed in KudoZ. As you probably know, there have been several changes made lately.
To my knowledge, you never really asked the question you are asking in this thread...
What we did was a survey (there were 195 responses to 20 questions), followed by the comprehensive study that I mentioned: 15 volunteers doing a question-by-question review, looking at issues such as those you present above. (The exercise took three weeks.)
We got some pretty good information, and as I said, it is that data that has guided our activities since.
.......
Look, lest anyone get the wrong impression, my intention is not to discredit any critic of the system. To be sure, the issues with quality are there, they are surely real. It is just the "'deterioration' yeti" (which has eluded all "scientific" reviews to date) that continues to confound. I mean, in the most recent survey, more respondents said that KudoZ quality was improving than said it was declining. And this keeps happening.
Did you all know that the first forum post about "plummeting" quality came in May of 2000? (That was before most of those who now wax nostalgic had even registered.) Why is it that we keep seeing one group of forum posters' "dog days" turn into another groups' "good old days"? And why do forum postings about the "good old days" only come when one feels that KudoZ is dead? If you go by forum posts alone, KudoZ has been in a constant state of decline since 6 months after its inception. It does not seem possible.
Anyway, thanks for posting, Viktoria. I'll be in touch.
| | | | | One reason for the quality problems of the KudoZ system | Sep 9, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
Did you all know that the first forum post about "plummeting" quality came in May of 2000? (That was before most of those who now wax nostalgic had even registered.) Why is it that we keep seeing one group of forum posters' "dog days" turn into another groups' "good old days"?
I have posted several times on the quality of the answers in the KudoZ system. I joined ProZ in 2002, so I don't know about people complaining in 2000 about a perceived drop in quality; however, I had been a memeber for years of another online community of translators: FLEFO.
To my eye the difference between KudoZ and the terminology discussion threads on FLEFO was immediately striking: KudoZ was a points-based system, where the reason many people participate is to "win" more points. FLEFO never had any such system, and the only reason people participated was therefore to help their colleagues (or, I suppose, sometimes to show off one's knowledge).
In my firm opinion, the KudoZ points are the original sin that poisons the entire system: without them, fewer people would bother to provide answers. But it is exactly the people that answer mostly, to "win" points that cause most of the trouble: without points to win, discussions about the relative merits of different answers would not be so heated, and people would not be tempted to provide tentative answers on the off-chance that by answering often some of the answers would be chosen, as in a lottery.
Even without going to a system without any points there are ways that KudoZ could be made more reliable. For example (as suggested over the years by several experienced colleagues), KudoZ could be changed into a system that does not emphasize points total, but rather a ratio between answer provided and answers chosen as most helpful.
Such a system would have two distinct advantages:
1) It would better reflect the reliability of the answerer (If Jane Doe has earned 400 points by answering 200 questions, she is probably a more reliable answerer than her colleague Susan Roe, who has a higher total - 600 points - but racked that up by answering 1200 questions).
and
2) A ratio/based system would encourage newer members to participate and still hope to make it to the top of the list, whereas the current system is hopeless in that regard.
My preference would still be for a more open, less contrived system without any points, but if we have to have points, then a ratio-based system would be far better.
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Henry D wrote:
Thanks for your reply, Stéphanie, but I do know all that. If you reread my question, you will see that it is directed at those who bemoan a "deterioration" in KudoZ quality (always without specifics.) (I don't think you are among them, Stéphanie).
I have been using KudoZ for two years only, so I cannot really say whether or nor quality is worse than before. But as a frequent and daily user (as both asker and answerer), I often search the glossary and have been thinking right from the start that glossary entries are a real mess. By the way I would like to know how they are organized/classified - if they are, because it does not seem to be the case.
Regarding quality, I think Viktoria sums up everything.
Riccardo Schiaffino wrote:
In my firm opinion, the KudoZ points are the original sin that poisons the entire system: without them, fewer people would bother to provide answers. But it is exactly the people that answer mostly, to "win" points that cause most of the trouble.
Agree. I am also involved in other professional forums where terminology discussions are much more healthy.
In the meantime, I cannot deny that the amount of KudoZ points I won has always helped me to make myself known to potential clients.
KudoZ could be changed into a system that does not emphasize points total, but rather a ratio between answer provided and answers chosen as most helpful.
Such a system would have two distinct advantages:
1) It would better reflect the reliability of the answerer
Agree, I know some people who are at the top of the leader list but who need to answer 10 questions before getting 4 points
2) A ratio/based system would encourage newer members to participate and still hope to make it to the top of the list, whereas the current system is hopeless in that regard.
Exactly
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Henk Peelen 
Netherlands
Local time: 02:44
Member (2002)
German to Dutch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Dutch: improvement | Sep 9, 2008 |
I too joined ProZ.com in 2002 and in my language pairs (German-Dutch and English-Dutch) I've seen nothing else than improvement when it comes to linguistical and expert knowledge. However, I have to admit the reason might be the Dutch / Flemish community is diverse but not widespread and without real competition from countries where an Euro means much more buying power than it has in the western world. Next to that, the difference in Romanic and Germanic attitude is dealt with in another way tha... See more I too joined ProZ.com in 2002 and in my language pairs (German-Dutch and English-Dutch) I've seen nothing else than improvement when it comes to linguistical and expert knowledge. However, I have to admit the reason might be the Dutch / Flemish community is diverse but not widespread and without real competition from countries where an Euro means much more buying power than it has in the western world. Next to that, the difference in Romanic and Germanic attitude is dealt with in another way than it is in the America's.
On the other hand, I don't think points are the point, it's just how you perceive them. I think a little reward could stimulate people to participate. I can't believe you spend 300 hours each year just to get KudoZ. It's the whole thing that makes people participating:
* learn what questions colleagues might have
* try to find a solution
* learn from answers and comments from colleagues
* maybe get to know those colleagues, either virtually or personally
* ...
I think the difference between the pioneer period (let's say 1999-2003) and later is that the contributors (both askers, answerers, commenters) the first years ProZ considered a kind of newly discovered continent, beit a virtual one. Any competition was considered natural, some debate resulting in winners and losers as well.
Though I started translating commercially in 1998, I learned that the translating industry in 20 years developed from an isolated typewriter craft to an complete transparent international community (actually the whole world is doing so), showing kind of multinational features, so highly professional, but impersonal and greyish as well.
In the post pioneer period the lots seem to be granted and accepted and people overlook the gained advantages, because in a virtual world they are common. Personal improvement nowadays more is to be gained by specializing, because there are so many people you've never met personally but which are nevertheless nearly touchable present here, providing nearly the same services in the same language pairs and same fields of expertise than you do. That could make people feel insecure.
The only detoriation in my language pairs I see is that when all of "the experts" are having a day of, sometimes nobody is answering.
For my language pairs I very often use a German-English and vice versa (and providing more language pairs) internet source leodotorg featuring a comparable asker-answerer system like KudoZ, but without points and without the possibility of commenting in special boxes. Next to that the asker aint urged to close the question. Sometimes highly professional, but a lot of questions are everything but "finished", because there is no real need to do so. There is no glossary-question connection, so within the questions you can only search in one direction. With ProZ you can search for both the source term and an expected answer.
I think the KudoZ concept is an excellent way of collecting and providing the most expert knowledge with the least efforts, due to its clear structure.
I often get the idea it's often the Spanish world that has problems with everything.
[Bijgewerkt op 2008-09-09 11:40] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Having problems with everything | Sep 9, 2008 |
Henk Peelen wrote:
I often get the idea it's often the Spanish world that has problems with everything.
[Bijgewerkt op 2008-09-09 11:40]
Dear Henk,
Is this the way how things (including any alleged KudoZ deterioration) are evaluated in the "Germanic world" or just your personal style?
Greetings from a member of the "Spanish world,"
Luis
P.S.: This member of the "Spanish world" has no opinion as to any alleged KudoZ deterioration because he has not participated in KudoZ for nearly 5 years.
| | | | | Not cultural, I think | Sep 9, 2008 |
Thanks for the alternative perspective, Henk. This is the sort of view that comes out more in surveys that it does in the forums.
Henk Peelen wrote:
I often get the idea it's often the Spanish world that has problems with everything.
No, it seems to be the major pairs. Spanish is probably most active, that is all.
Note, however, that in surveys, users in active pairs are as likely to speak positively about KudoZ quality as those in less active pairs... it simply seems to be a matter of perspective, with newer users having a more favorable opinion, and those who have been on the site longer -- especially active forum posters -- having a less favorable view.
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