le plus grand rendez-vous populaire

23:10 Sep 11, 2017 

Where?

16:24 Sep 11, 2017 

Answers: 5
Discussion entries: 18
Reference entries: 1
Contributions or thanks from CarolMasip: 0

13:53 Sep 11, 2017 

I didn't highlight the bit about bets because that has been the focus of much of the discussion here; the other bit is that part that's been rather ignored. I think bets are part but not all of what "le plus grand" refers to, and I highlighted the other bit (about perceptions, media coverage, etc.) to make that point.

Whether the greatest French race is the Arc or the Prix d'Amérique is a matter of opinion. I would say it's the Arc; at least it's certainly the most famous internationally. Within France, I don't know what people would say. The fact that although more money is bet on the Arc, much more money is bet on the Prix within France (€39M versus €17M on the Arc, Carol tells us) suggests that the perspective might be different there. But in any case the writer is not claiming the Prix is the greatest race, just the greatest popular race, which is a different matter.

I want to use "great" rather than "big" precisely because I think it is expressing an opinion, about importance rather than just size.

I don't think it's obvious at all that we should change the ST if we don't agree with it. But to my mind the opinion expressed here is perfectly reasonable.

13:48 Sep 11, 2017 

2.
Comparing harness and thoroughbred racing is like comparing chalk and cheese as I said earlier. It is far cheaper to breed, buy and train a "cheval trotteur" than to breed, buy and train a thoroughbred. Also, the local farmer might own a trotting horse but be very unlikely to own a thoroughbred. Thus the hoi polloi in France may feel closer or more involved with harness racing and hence more interested in placing bets on their neighbour's horse. In the UK and Ireland, however, harness racing is not very popular at all as it is associated with Irish Travellers racing sulkies along public roads, often with serious animal-welfare issues. (Currently there is a move afoot for Ireland to get more involved in harness racing with France agreeing to allow horses bred in Ireland participate in French races and even offering funds to get this scheme up and running. So I've been hearing more about harness racing) Anyway, my 2 cents. If you want to use "biggest" you will have to say (IMHO) "harness race". There is no doubt that the Arc is the flagship race for thoroughbreds and the Prix d'Amérique flagship harness race (in France)

13:27 Sep 11, 2017 

@ Charles
I don't understand why you omitted to highlight this bit in your last note?
it's the 'greatest' meeting, not in terms of spectators attending, but in terms of money wagered within France on the Pari-Mutuel, i.e, domestically. For those who don't know what this type of betting is (similar to Tote betting here): https://www.gamblingsites.com/sports-betting/types/pari-mutu... But I don't like "greatest" anyway because that is an opinion and I think most horseracing fans would say the "greatest" French race is the Arc (and possibly the most prestigious race in Europe) and which, as previously pointed out, has the largest attendance, purse (prize money) and total amount in bets (including international). Just because the French ST is inaccurate does not mean the English should be as well. Hence it could be said that the Prix d'Amérique is the biggest HARNESS RACE in France and is the most popular race in terms of domestic wagers (9 million betting slips).

19:56 Sep 10, 2017 

It is "le plus grand rendez-vous" and it is also a "rendez-vous populaire".
I repeat that I really like Phil's meaning of ordinary people for the FR use of "populaire" here, and that it exists in EN as a meaning too, altho' is used much less often in that way.
"Biggest" is perhaps not so good as "greatest" : that covers size, impression, whatever.

But honestly, there is absolutely nothing in the original to support a meaning of "most bet-upon". That element is dealt with later in the sentence. It follows on, but is a separate point : greatest (= size/impressive (advertisng puff type language), popular (= wide appeal) then "avec un record absolu, etc.".

19:19 Sep 10, 2017 

I've looked at the Translators Café question, and I agree with this comment, from a TC contributor I usually find fairly reliable:

"You can't really say that it's " the most bet-upon race in France " as that isn't what the original text says; it says it's the 'greatest' meeting, not in terms of spectators attending, but in terms of money wagered within France on the Pari-Mutuel, i.e, domestically, and on public perceptions of the meeting, including media coverage, etc." (my emphasis).

17:23 Sep 10, 2017 

I think the Grand National is an apt comparison. I used to watch it avidly, though I have never literally bet on it (I was in a sweepstake a couple of times). In UK people who never bet on anything else bet on that. But it's a great popular event not only because of the volume of betting, but because it's a great tradition with a long history behind it, and is regarded as the people's race, as opposed to the Derby or Ascot, which are for the toffs. Ordinary people talk about it, much more than any other horse race. It's quite often top story on the news that day.

The Prix d'Amérique has a special place in French popular culture, starting as a tribute to America's role in saving France in the First World War. It's a great social event for all classes. I think "le plus grand" refers to all this sort of thing, rather than just financial statistics, how many million euros are bet on it compared to the Arc de Triomphe.

17:06 Sep 10, 2017 

I've voted PRO, because although the words are simple, deciding how best to translate them here calls for a professional level of judgement and expertise, in my opinion. Simple, everyday words are sometimes difficult to render, and finding the right way to render them can be more difficult than finding equivalents for "terms".

By the way, the word "term", as used on this site, is shorthand for "term or short phrase".

16:36 Sep 10, 2017 

I can't agree that this should be translated as "most bet-upon", or words to that effect. If that was what the writer wanted to say, it could easily have been done, for example by saying something like "la course la plus jouée par les parieurs", as on the race's website. Using "le plus grand rendez-vous populaire" to express that idea was pretty inept, if it was the intention. I find it more plausible that the writer made this more general statement deliberately. I can see no good reason not to do the same in English. Contrary to what has been said, describing this as the greatest popular horse-racing event in France makes perfect sense (regardless of whether you agree).

I think there's a good argument for translating "le plus grand" as "the greatest" rather than "the biggest". It seems to me that "grand" probably refers not to some numerical criterion, such as volume of betting, but to the importance of this race as a popular event. The volume of betting is no doubt one of the things that makes it the greatest, but more generally, it probably means the event dearest to the heart of the French public (like the Grand National, rather than the Derby, in the UK).

16:10 Sep 10, 2017 

it's non-PRO. It certainly is not a "term" in the way that ProZ speaks of terms.

15:53 Sep 10, 2017 

The easy questions tend to generate the greatest amount of discussion. See the case in hand. So that's not a basis for deciding it's pro.

13:32 Sep 10, 2017 

I went to click on the link for aforementioned support ticket, and behold, there was the "Vote PRO" button! I am now thoroughly baffled.

13:30 Sep 10, 2017 

I agree with both of you that this should be a pro question, but the link isn't there. I'm submitting a support ticket, as much out of curiosity as anything.

11:54 Sep 10, 2017 

You're right. I wanted to change back to Pro and couldn't access it.

I like your suggestion of "ordinary" for the meaning of "populaire".

11:32 Sep 10, 2017 

... as reflected by the amount of discussion.

11:20 Sep 10, 2017 

This is what I mentionned in my first post here. It is easy enough to render with "biggest popular horse-racing event".

11:16 Sep 10, 2017 

"Le plus grand RDV" suggests the biggest event in size, in terms of numbers of people attending. It could also mean the greatest number of participants, or even the greatest in terms of money involved, not just in terms of bets placed.

"Populaire" has a number of meanings but one not to be overlooked in French, as it is used is this way a great deal, is that of an event that attracts people from all different walks of life, but particularly the ones from lower socio-economic classes, who might not otherwise attend this type of event. That notion is difficult to translate in English, at least, in some politically correct form. However, the same meaning does exist in the English term. (See the Oxford dic entry).

11:12 Sep 10, 2017 

I think you may be over-reading the meaning of "populaire" here. The ordinary meaning of "populaire" applies here : http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/populaire/6261... Various nuances do attach to the meaning of the term as you can see from the Larousse entry. The same is true of the ENglish term "popluar" : https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/popular
Those meanings can range from being the one which has the greatest number of people attending to the one that is most loved, but the term can also describe one that is attended and/or appreciated by people of lower social economic classes.
The point is that does not matter for your translation as the English term carries the same nuances as the French term. Further, the sentence concerned goes on to say that the event in question has the all-time record of the amount wagered.

In my opinion, "most bet-upon" for "le plus populaire" is not correct here. The second part of the sentence describes the record element and "most bet-upon" does not mean the greatest amount either. It could mean it has the most number of bets, for example. In fact, I think it is a mistranslation of "populaire" here.

11:11 Sep 10, 2017 

Your context (and research) suggests that by "le plus grand ... populaire" they are talking about the biggest *for betting*, but this is kind of phrase is always context dependent. Your English context should suggest the same ("..., with ... $$ wagered), but I don't think there's any need to force "most bet-on" (or more generally, any specifics) into a part of the sentence where it isn't present.

("Le plus grand" in different contexts might mean the most racegoers, the most bet-on, the most horses/races, the one taking place over the largest area, the most money spent, ... )