| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Do you proofread texts in your reverse language pair? Thread poster: Sarah McDowell
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Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 17:20
English to German
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In memoriam | Perfection is relative. | Jun 9, 2013 |
Yurizx wrote:
agree.
quite often we forget the purpose of what we're doing, and strive for the Perfection. an illusive dream.
My clients also know that our small, family-owned business besides me consists of a Master in English and a Professor of English. They know that I will ensure that the German source text has been fully understood, and that the other guys will make it sound beautiful.
I hope that those idiotic phone calls from European colleagues in the middle of the night will stop. Not smart enough to figure out my time zone or to give the slightest consideration to the fact that our company name ends with "Group", but so full of themselves as English native speakers that they find it perfectly OK to call me at 5 am on my emergency-call-forwarding phone line (my parents are old and fragile) to rant about my office offering translation into English. How dare I, not being a native speaker.
Sigh.
| | | | | There are trained proofreaders who do proofreading. | Jun 9, 2013 |
They usually have a degree in the target language or something related, and know various manuals of style (in the US). Different rules apply to different types of texts and different publishers Proofreading is different from editing. It is not even enough to be a native speaker of the language -- you have to have proofreader's knowledge and training to do it. I would never do it in any language. (if the text is meant for publication -- of course you sort of proofread all the texts before yo... See more They usually have a degree in the target language or something related, and know various manuals of style (in the US). Different rules apply to different types of texts and different publishers Proofreading is different from editing. It is not even enough to be a native speaker of the language -- you have to have proofreader's knowledge and training to do it. I would never do it in any language. (if the text is meant for publication -- of course you sort of proofread all the texts before you hand them in)
There are courses to become a proofreader. I believe it really has to be your native language, though. You do not necessarily have to know any other languages -- monolingual people might prove even slightly better proofreaders because they are not affected by any language interference. (They obviously cannot become translation editors)
It might be a great idea, if Proz.com also had professional proofreaders who offered their services in various languages.
[Edited at 2013-06-09 08:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Do you proofread texts in your reverse language pair?
Hi, Sara! No. I do not.
I advise you refuse this job too.
| | | | Suzan Hamer
Netherlands
Local time: 02:20
English
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| Yoo hoo! Over here! | Jun 9, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
They usually have a degree in the target language or something related, and know various manuals of style (in the US). Different rules apply to different types of texts and different publishers Proofreading is different from editing. It is not even enough to be a native speaker of the language -- you have to have proofreader's knowledge and training to do it. I would never do it in any language. (if the text is meant for publication -- of course you sort of proofread all the texts before you hand them in).
.....
It might be a great idea, if Proz.com also had professional proofreaders who offered their services in various languages.
[Edited at 2013-06-09 08:30 GMT]
[italics mine]
Proz.com DOES have professional proofreaders. I am one of several native English-speaking proofreaders and editors (with a B.A. in English) registered here on Proz.
For years, I have requested that Proz.com consider having a separate Proofreading/Editing division on the site... which does, after all, bill itself someplace as a site for language professionals. Not only translators, but "language professionals" and that, to me, includes editors and proofreaders.
(At the moment the only reference to the proofreader/editor-encompassing I can find is:
"Language professionals have been using ProZ.com wisely since 1999 to make the next move in their careers. Here are three questions to ask yourself when considering membership:" http://www.proz.com/membership/campaign)
Anyway. We do exist. I think a separate division on the Proz.com site for us would highlight that fact and make it easier for people to find us... It would also benefit Proz.com by attracting people seeking proofreading and editing, as well as translation.
And yes, Lilian. Thanks for pointing out: "It is not even enough to be a native speaker of the language -- you have to have proofreader's knowledge and training to do it."
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| I think it would be a great idea to have a separate section like that. | Jun 9, 2013 |
Proofreaders are really a treasure. Many even the greatest translators may not see certain small mistakes, typos,or wrongly used punctuation, especially after hours of tedious work at the computer.
Also, as I said before, various types of texts require slightly different rules. It will be very good for the quality of language as well -- to protect it from further deterioration, in many cases, unfortunately.
| | | | Mark Benson (X)
English to Swedish
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| I disagree ... | Jun 9, 2013 |
Sarah McDowell wrote: Hello Mark. I'll answer your questions about this. Then you've asked if they made a mistake and sent you the wrong file? No, I haven't asked them this. I know that they haven't made a mistake. To ask them this would be to insult the client's intelligence level. Have you asked why they don't let a Russian native speaker look at the text? No, I have not asked them yet. Don't you think it would be strange to send a client an e-mail saying "Why do you want ME to do it?" after the first time they contact you? I don't want to ask this because it kind of is an insult to the client and to myself. And you've let them know that your native language is English? Same thing. This much is obvious from my first and last name. To state the obvious would be to insult the client's intelligence level. In fact, they specifically contacted me because I am a native speaker of English. The client lives in Moscow so has access to a multitude of Russian native speakers. Apparently they wrote to me because I am an English native speaker. I did not expect everyone here to get all up in arms about this. Please keep in mind that I did not initiate the request. It was the client who initiated it when they wrote to me. I am just thinking of how to best respond to it. I am in no way trying to "steal" the jobs from the native speakers. [Edited at 2013-06-09 06:51 GMT]
... with your assumptions. Being upfront and honest makes everything easier for all involved parties.
And also, I'm not at all alarmed. Just curious.
If I understood that a client had sent me a text to be edited in one of my source languages, I would simply say "no, I can't do that". But I tend to see it as an unlikely event.
| | | | Vanda Nissen
Australia
Local time: 10:20
Member (2008)
English to Russian
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| It makes sense | Jun 9, 2013 |
Sarah McDowell wrote:
It is my understanding that they are someone who is studying translation but still in school.
Well, obviously the translator wants to be sure whether their comprehension of the original text was good enough. I think, you just need to clarify the task, otherwise I can't see any reasons why you can't do it?
| | | | | Proofreading is not about comprehension -- that would be editing. | Jun 9, 2013 |
Many people, for some reason, mix those two terms. The aim of proofreading is to make sure that a translated and well (bilingually) edited text does not have any small mistakes, typos, wrongly used punctuation marks, and that the it complies with the requirements of a particular manual of style, or publishing house standards.
[Edited at 2013-06-09 12:22 GMT]
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| Do ask about the language direction | Jun 9, 2013 |
Do ask - diplomatically - if the task was intended for you.
It is not an insult to anyone's intelligence. It is simply an acknowledgement that the best of us make mistakes.
I worked at a library for a while, and really had to concentrate when sorting returned books in English and Danish before putting them back on the shelves. The other staff had no problem, but I read both languages like a native.
On several occasions I have been sent jobs for proofing or ... See more Do ask - diplomatically - if the task was intended for you.
It is not an insult to anyone's intelligence. It is simply an acknowledgement that the best of us make mistakes.
I worked at a library for a while, and really had to concentrate when sorting returned books in English and Danish before putting them back on the shelves. The other staff had no problem, but I read both languages like a native.
On several occasions I have been sent jobs for proofing or translation by PMs who know perfectly well that I don't translate into Danish or German or whatever, although I can answer an e-mail in several languages and often do.
In the rush and bustle of a busy working day, it happens.
Otherwise 'proofreading' is many things to many people, and what is needed varies from text to text, so I check with every assignment.
I would not normally check in my reverse pair professionally. I have done it privately, before handing over to my husband for a final check. Some native Danes are uncertain about their own grammar rules, and as a linguist of the older generation, I know them better! But I don't catch everything, and I make mistakes of my own. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sebastian Witte
Germany
Local time: 02:20
Member (2004)
English to German
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| The German to English case | Jun 9, 2013 |
It is an established fact that many English speaking linguists are not that good at grasping all aspects of a German sentence correctly. Saying this is not nasty, competitive behaviour, it really is like that, because the two languages are pretty different. Just take a look at KudoZ and you will see.
So why not have someone at home in English (I'm not really claiming to be near-native (despite a German to English interpreter with an MSc from Western Africa I am friends with having ... See more It is an established fact that many English speaking linguists are not that good at grasping all aspects of a German sentence correctly. Saying this is not nasty, competitive behaviour, it really is like that, because the two languages are pretty different. Just take a look at KudoZ and you will see.
So why not have someone at home in English (I'm not really claiming to be near-native (despite a German to English interpreter with an MSc from Western Africa I am friends with having said that once, that statement is hidden so deep down in the very depths of our website that hardly anyone will ever read it, plus technically, I don't really believe in it myself), I'm just saying my English sounds natural rather than forced) that's (in standard English that would be "who is", I guess) native in German check whether the English translation is fully correct?
Do I sometimes still produce somewhat clumsy/stilted English? Are there slight issues with word order with my editing at times? Are the commas not always where they 'sposed to be at? To avoid that, our customers get a final round of monolingual proofing by the native speaker of (UK) English, Astrid in with the price.
Can I produce UK English that flies when I exclusively post in what I consider US English in the ProZ.com forums and also, besides doing it in German, on XING? Yes, I can, being "exposed" to it 13 hours a day because we now share an office plus UK English originally was the language variant spoken and written in English classes in high school.
[Edited at 2013-06-09 15:21 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 02:20
French to English
| Why insulting? | Jun 9, 2013 |
I really don't see why it would be an insult to just make sure that there wasn't a file mix-up. Preface the question with "I'm rather curious as to why you want an obviously English person to check a Russian file".
I have been working for one client since about 2005, they send me about three texts a week, and always for the only combination I work in. Yet just a short while ago they sent me an English text, asking me to translate it. It turned out to be one of my translations on th... See more I really don't see why it would be an insult to just make sure that there wasn't a file mix-up. Preface the question with "I'm rather curious as to why you want an obviously English person to check a Russian file".
I have been working for one client since about 2005, they send me about three texts a week, and always for the only combination I work in. Yet just a short while ago they sent me an English text, asking me to translate it. It turned out to be one of my translations on the same subject. They had opened it up to see whether any paragraphs could be recycled, then simply attached it rather than the new text.
And actually, it's not because you have a Scottish surname that you're necessarily a native English speaker. I know three Sarahs, from Brazil, Iran and Belgium, and you could have married a Scot. My daughter's name sounds totally mid-Eastern yet she doesn't speak a word of Arabic.
I personally do proofreading for EN-FR. For me that means checking target against source for comprehension, checking that it reads well, perhaps making suggestions to improve the target, whether because it fails to convey a message in the source or because of a silly mistake or a clumsy turn of phrase. However the text and my comments then go back to the translator who, as the native speaker, will keep full control of their text. And I've lived in France for longer than I ever lived in England, and I read lots of French literature, and I interact with people in French every day. I would refuse if a non-native had done the translation because I would be frightened of missing gender issues... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 05:50
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | Depends on how proficient you are in the reverse direction | Jun 9, 2013 |
If you feel that you are sufficiently proficient in your second language, go ahead and take up the proof-reading. There is nothing sacrosanct in being a native speaker of language as far as translation is considered.
All that being a native speaker does is that it helps in gaining proficiency in a language. That does not mean of course that non-native speakers of languages do not gain proficiency in those languages. The world is too full of contrary examples to prove that this is no... See more If you feel that you are sufficiently proficient in your second language, go ahead and take up the proof-reading. There is nothing sacrosanct in being a native speaker of language as far as translation is considered.
All that being a native speaker does is that it helps in gaining proficiency in a language. That does not mean of course that non-native speakers of languages do not gain proficiency in those languages. The world is too full of contrary examples to prove that this is not so.
What you should look into is, are you proficient enough in the language you are proof-reading to be able to spot all errors in the text? If your proficiency level is up to his mark, just go ahead do the proof-reading. ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:20
Hebrew to English
| The perils of self-assessment | Jun 9, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
If you feel that you are sufficiently proficient in your second language, go ahead and take up the proof-reading.... If your proficiency level is up to his mark, just go ahead do the proof-reading.
There are however many dangers in self-assessing your own proficiency [and then unilaterally acting on it] The world/the web/this site is full of dodgy translators who have convinced themselves that a) they have the required proficiency when they don't or worse b) that they have somehow morphed into a native speaker, when they really haven't and fall way short of the mark.
There is nothing sacrosanct in being a native speaker of language as far as translation is considered.
No, but it is a consideration to factor in.
All that being a native speaker does is that it helps in gaining proficiency in a language
Most native speakers are proficient by the time they are about 5 years old (usually just lacking the vocabulary of someone five times their age). Being a native speaker does instil a certain "language instinct" but often more importantly a native speaker is proficient in the culture, not just the language. Try as you might it's not always easy to acquire a new set of cultural references. I've been known to get lost in a conversation because the topic of conversation has shifted/referred to a singer from 30 years ago/a cartoon character/historical event/TV series/kid's toy/brand name or some other shared cultural reference I have never been privy to....and even if they get explained to you or you experience them it's not always the same level of appreciation/understanding not being in the "in-group" of that culture.
So, whilst I don't think being a native-speaker is the be all and end all, you shouldn't be so glib in completely writing it off either.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:20
Hebrew to English
| I'd never get away with that... | Jun 9, 2013 |
Sebastian Witte wrote:
It is an established fact that many English speaking linguists are not that good at grasping all aspects of a German sentence correctly.
I'm sure you're not being malicious, but there's no way I'd get away with saying that in reverse (and my source and target languages are as different as chalk and cheese).
| | | | | Successful proofreading. | Jun 9, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Most native speakers are proficient by the time they are about 5 years old (usually just lacking the vocabulary of someone five times their age). Being a native speaker does instil a certain "language instinct" but often more importantly a native speaker is proficient in the culture, not just the language. Try as you might it's not always easy to acquire a new set of cultural references. I've been known to get lost in a conversation because the topic of conversation has shifted/referred to a singer from 30 years ago/a cartoon character/historical event/TV series/kid's toy/brand name or some other shared cultural reference I have never been privy to....and even if they get explained to you or you experience them it's not always the same level of appreciation/understanding not being in the "in-group" of that culture.
So, whilst I don't think being a native-speaker is the be all and end all, you shouldn't be so glib in completely writing it off either.
I think you must be joking, Ty. Proficient by the age of 5? Perhaps to talk to their mommies about food and cartoons, or some childhood experiences. I agree that monolingual people -- who have spoken one language for most of their lives and have all their education in one language, and in addition to that are detail-oriented by nature, when they also have the right training, might be better proofreaders than people constantly using a few languages. Proofreading is a profession -- like translation is. Why take away their bread?
Proofreading proficiency is college level proficiency, perhaps high school, in some isolated cases of very talented people. Some people never reach that linguistic level, not matter if they do it in their L1 or not.
[Edited at 2013-06-09 17:17 GMT]
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