Proofreading: only paying for words after repetitions Thread poster: Linda Flebus
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Linda Flebus
Belgium
Local time: 05:06
German to Dutch
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Dear colleagues,
For the second time I have worked for a client to proofread a large text. The first time all words were paid for revision. This time however they want to pay me based on the words AFTER REPETITIONS. The two texts together amount to 10.227 words in the source language and 10.501 words in the target language. The company however says the proofreading is 6.705 words.
First of all: I think the proofreading should be based on the TARGET language since it is... See more Dear colleagues,
For the second time I have worked for a client to proofread a large text. The first time all words were paid for revision. This time however they want to pay me based on the words AFTER REPETITIONS. The two texts together amount to 10.227 words in the source language and 10.501 words in the target language. The company however says the proofreading is 6.705 words.
First of all: I think the proofreading should be based on the TARGET language since it is this language I am revising.
Second: when proofreading I have to read the COMPLETE text and not only the words after repetitions! I thus feel I should be paid based on the full amount of words in the target language, not on the words after repetitions.
Thirdly:they send the TM and want me to return the proofread text (1 cleaned and 1 version with track and trace) and also the updated TM.
I would say they get good value for money as it took me well over 10 hours to revise these texts. Getting paid for the words after repetitions would get me down to a revision price of 1 eurocent per word (all words taken into account, not just repetitions).
What are your experiences? I will never work for them again if they do not accept to pay me for all the revised words. Am I right?
Regards,
Linda ▲ Collapse
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 05:06
Spanish to English
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... on how desperate you are to have this job/keep the client.
I tend to be rather unprofessional in the sense that I have no qualms about telling a client to find another provider if they insist on conditions I consider exploitative, unfeasible or unfair, but I don't recommend it to everyone, especially if they are just starting out.
[Edited at 2011-06-15 10:11 GMT]
| | | | Joakim Braun 
Sweden
Local time: 05:06
German to Swedish
+ ...
| What nonsense | Jun 15, 2011 |
A proofreader gets paid for the amount of text to proofread (or by the hour). End of argument.
(...ooh! But this is a fun game. We only pay for the first occurrence of each word. We only count vowels. We will pay half scale for adverbs starting with "B" and plural nouns containing "E". We pay 66.6% for sentences of less than 9 words because they're faster to read. We don't pay for sentences containing "the". Every change must be submitted for review and approval through our propriet... See more A proofreader gets paid for the amount of text to proofread (or by the hour). End of argument.
(...ooh! But this is a fun game. We only pay for the first occurrence of each word. We only count vowels. We will pay half scale for adverbs starting with "B" and plural nouns containing "E". We pay 66.6% for sentences of less than 9 words because they're faster to read. We don't pay for sentences containing "the". Every change must be submitted for review and approval through our proprietary Internet tool with a certified copy of your car registration.)
[Bearbeitet am 2011-06-15 10:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | monica.m
Italy
Local time: 05:06
Member (2011)
German to Italian
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neilmac wrote:
... on how desperate you are to have this job/keep the client.
I tend to be rather unprofessional in the sense that I have no qualms about telling a client to find another provider if they insist on conditions I consider exploitative, unfeasible or unfair, but I don't recommend it to everyone, especially if they are just starting out.
[Edited at 2011-06-15 10:11 GMT]
Agree 100%.
And NO REGRETS!!!
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| Charge by the hour - realistically | Jun 15, 2011 |
I get very annoyed about agencies who not only try the 'repetition game' but limit the time they will pay for and then want an elaborate evaluation scheme filled in with details of a dozen different types of errors.
Is it OK if you only correct the error the first time it turns up?
(Afer all, why should you correct repetitions if you are not paid to do so?)
It can take a long time to decide how to categorise errors - serious, grade 1,2, 3, spelling, grammar, leadi... See more I get very annoyed about agencies who not only try the 'repetition game' but limit the time they will pay for and then want an elaborate evaluation scheme filled in with details of a dozen different types of errors.
Is it OK if you only correct the error the first time it turns up?
(Afer all, why should you correct repetitions if you are not paid to do so?)
It can take a long time to decide how to categorise errors - serious, grade 1,2, 3, spelling, grammar, leading to misunderstanding/ source misunderstood and wrongly translated...
It is far easier to assume that most changes are self explanatory, and add comments directly as necessary, in the file with tracked changes. (Consistency - which is the preferred spelling/capitalisation of names and titles? Terminology: do you know the difference between a shovel and a spade? or a polite explanation of the reasoning behind the changes...)
I also believe this is more useful as feedback than telling someone 'You made 17 typos, six grade two errors and one grade three' or whatever.
When I get direct comments on my own work, I go through them carefully, and I have learnt a lot from proofreaders, but if anyone sends me statistics I tend simply to delete or bin them!
Like Neilmac, I tell clients that I do not have time if they will not let me do the job on my own terms.
QA is not a question of how many linguists see the text. It is about finding the right person to translate it in the first place and allowing TIME to do it properly. A second pair of eyes - with time to look at the target first, without source interference, can often add some useful polishing, but otherwise, all the fiddling and statistics in the world will not make a good translation out of a mess.
If they can't trust you to do it, they should not hire you in the first place. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sylvie Pilon (X)
Canada
Local time: 23:06
English to French
| Illogical request | Jun 15, 2011 |
Linda Flebus wrote:
This time however they want to pay me based on the words AFTER REPETITIONS.
This is completely unacceptable. Even as a translator, I refuse not to be paid for repetitions.
As a proofreader, I find that repetitions involve even more work than other sentences, since I have to find the very first occurrence of the sentence to make sure that I correct (if need be) each repeated sentence in the same way as the original. Therefore, repetitions should be paid at the same rate as other sentences, if not more.
Sylvie
| | | | Claire Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:06
French to English
+ ...
| The only way.. | Jun 15, 2011 |
The only way for them to pay you just for the words after repetitions would be for them to have sent you the document with those words removed. Presumably they didn't do that and so you have had to check them all IN CONTEXT. So you should definitely be paid for the full word count.
That said, like others, I always charge on the basis of an hourly rate for proof-reading, so I'm paid for however long it takes me. A good translation will take less time; a truly awful one may as well ha... See more The only way for them to pay you just for the words after repetitions would be for them to have sent you the document with those words removed. Presumably they didn't do that and so you have had to check them all IN CONTEXT. So you should definitely be paid for the full word count.
That said, like others, I always charge on the basis of an hourly rate for proof-reading, so I'm paid for however long it takes me. A good translation will take less time; a truly awful one may as well have been retranslated sometimes....
Stick to your guns!
[Edited at 2011-06-15 11:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The thin end of the wedge | Jun 15, 2011 |
I agree with your opinion that this is unacceptable. Requests like that could lead to further shenanigans if you accept them. As I wondered out loud in a similar recent thread, where will it end? Discounts for repeated letters of the alphabet?
You mention that you have done the work and it took you over 10 hours. Were these terms communicated to you before you did this job, or only afterwards? If the latter, I don't see how you could be bound by them, unless you signed a contract t... See more I agree with your opinion that this is unacceptable. Requests like that could lead to further shenanigans if you accept them. As I wondered out loud in a similar recent thread, where will it end? Discounts for repeated letters of the alphabet?
You mention that you have done the work and it took you over 10 hours. Were these terms communicated to you before you did this job, or only afterwards? If the latter, I don't see how you could be bound by them, unless you signed a contract to that effect. And no, I wouldn't work for that company again either unless they accepted your terms, which are entirely reasonable. I've a nasty feeling they may withhold your money until you agree to their terms for this job, but I hope that won't happen.
[Edited at 2011-06-15 11:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Joakim Braun wrote:
A proofreader gets paid for the amount of text to proofread (or by the hour). End of argument.
Strongly agree. I never heard of considering repetitions in proofreading or reviewing.
Period.
| | | | Adam Jarczyk
Poland
Local time: 05:06
Member (2009)
English to Polish
+ ...
| In agreement with Christine: It is not the number of eyes... | Jun 15, 2011 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
QA is not a question of how many linguists see the text. It is about finding the right person to translate it in the first place and allowing TIME to do it properly. A second pair of eyes - with time to look at the target first, without source interference, can often add some useful polishing, but otherwise, all the fiddling and statistics in the world will not make a good translation out of a mess.
If they can't trust you to do it, they should not hire you in the first place.
How so very true! Quality is not a matter of how many eyes see a text. However, it can very well be a matter of finally finding someone knowledgeable enough to transform the piece of language at hand from one language to the other appropriately.
Just these days I was asked to "make a good translation out of a (MT, as it turned out after checking!) mess". Which I refused but offered to re-translate the highly specialized text in IT.
Meanwhile my client is quite happy about having finally assigned the matter to me - they got a content outside review of my work.
But translation is certainly a matter of trust - and of giving the chosen professional enough time to fulfil what is needed to hand over to you a high class linguistic product that received the necessary polish as well.
Keep your expectations in terms of working conditions high enough: you certainly have every right to be paid for all the words you did a revision on. Rest assured - the right clients will find you!
Adam
[Edited at 2011-06-15 17:24 GMT]
| | | | Mark Hamlen
France
Local time: 05:06
French to English
+ ...
Proofing should be paid by time, not by number of words or by repetitions (spare me!) Who's to know how messy a text you're going to get. (I refuse all proofing jobs now. I find they are sent out by agencies who pay such low rates for the translation process that professional translators won't work for them. Thus they have to have it re-done by another translator.)
This is the sort of client that I dump immediately. There are plenty of reasonable people to work with.
| | | | F Scott Ophof (X)
Belize
Local time: 21:06
Dutch to English
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| Here's how to then get paid EXTRA! | Jun 15, 2011 |
Linda Flebus wrote:
This time however they want to pay me based on the words AFTER REPETITIONS.
So let them!
But from your side, set your own special rate for repetitions (your regular rate times the number of repetitions PLUS 1). OOPS! Sylvie Pilon's comment re repetitions causing more work means one should add a factor of--say--10-20% extra per repetition.
In addition, reduce your regular rate to 1/2 of normal, but multiply each word's new rate by its number of meanings. You should now be making at least 50% over what you would normally.
I tend to agree with Joakim Braun; it's a fun game to play.
In addition, if they want you to fill out an evaluation scheme, then you charge for that by the word--their text PLUS your text-- PLUS the time you spent on it, right?
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Linda Flebus
Belgium
Local time: 05:06
German to Dutch
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TOPIC STARTER | Changed price, still too low | Jun 18, 2011 |
Dear colleagues,
First of all thank you for your remarks.
Meanwhile the customer has agreed to pay me extra: I now get 0,016 euro per proofread word, better than the original 0,01 word per proofread word (they stick to their word count without repetitions despite all arguments) but this is still outrageously low!!! Their reasoning: we pay 1/4 for revision of what we pay for the translation... so another translator (and probably more) was exploited by them. Nevertheless... See more Dear colleagues,
First of all thank you for your remarks.
Meanwhile the customer has agreed to pay me extra: I now get 0,016 euro per proofread word, better than the original 0,01 word per proofread word (they stick to their word count without repetitions despite all arguments) but this is still outrageously low!!! Their reasoning: we pay 1/4 for revision of what we pay for the translation... so another translator (and probably more) was exploited by them. Nevertheless (or maybe because of that) they are a big translation company with good rates on ProZ.
Fortunately I do not need them to earn a living and I will never ever work for them again.
Hopefully I get my money soon as it took me 11 weeks to get paid for the fist invoice (i.e. invoice made end of March, I granted 4 weeks to pay and should have the money on my account next week). They also graciously (sic!) took off £2,5 for bank costs.
Lesson learned: I will never work for them again!
Linda
PS Since 2005 I have worked as a translator and I have a customer base of around 90 customers but this is the first time I got ripped off in such a way which means that this company is hopefully the odd one out!!! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Linda Flebus
Belgium
Local time: 05:06
German to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I will stop proofreading | Jun 18, 2011 |
[quote]Mark Hamlen wrote:
(I refuse all proofing jobs now. I find they are sent out by agencies who pay such low rates for the translation process that professional translators won't work for them. Thus they have to have it re-done by another translator.)
Dear Mark,
I have the same experience with bad translations which need a lot of rework because of the cheap and unprofessional translators these companies use and based on this and what happened to me with this company I will stop proofreading now too. Only for valued customers I will still proofread.
Best regards,
Linda
| | | | Rolf Kern
Switzerland
Local time: 05:06
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Charge by the hour | Jun 18, 2011 |
This is the only valid way for proofreading. Maybe the tranlation was bad. But this shall not be your problem, only that of the agency. Recently I got a request by an Agency for proofreading. They said, they will pay XX per hour, and an hour will correspond to 1,000 words. I got no answer to my question, why do you not offer XX per 1'000 words?
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