| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | editing a high quality machine translation Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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From a recent proz.com job post:
"Company XXX plans to start a major program for editing high quality machine translation from several languages (European, South American, and Asian) into English.
A 4 or 5-year university degree is necessary to qualify. If you are a translator with native or near-native English language skill and are interested in participating in this long-term program, please e-mail your resume to ....."
Just want your opinion. I realize profess... See more From a recent proz.com job post:
"Company XXX plans to start a major program for editing high quality machine translation from several languages (European, South American, and Asian) into English.
A 4 or 5-year university degree is necessary to qualify. If you are a translator with native or near-native English language skill and are interested in participating in this long-term program, please e-mail your resume to ....."
Just want your opinion. I realize professional translation customers will always expect a "real" person to translate any text and a "real person" to do any additional editing, but it seems there is a lot of room for "using" editors and turning them into "translators" for the price of an "editor". The translation company gets the original translation from that "high-quality machine" for free (after a one-time investment in that fabulous translation equipment or by receiving texts already translated by some other client's magic translation program) but will then expect the editor to deliver the perfect final text for cheap. If they can convince somebody to do it.
Somehow I have a feeling that the final text will not be a high-quality translation.
Or can someone tell me more about that wondrous machine. Then I might have to simply become an excellent editor working with fabulous translations. Easy job!
:0)
Your thoughts are appreciated.
PS: I do use CAT tools, of course, but I am no machine.
[Edited at 2011-06-01 01:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 13:17
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| "A 4 or 5-year university degree is necessary to qualify." | May 31, 2011 |
First time I've been glad I never got to go to uni. Saves being tempted to apply - as if I would!
| | | | | I think that... | May 31, 2011 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
From a recent proz.com job post:
"Company XXX plans to start a major program for editing high quality machine translation from several languages (European, South American, and Asian) into English.
A 4 or 5-year university degree is necessary to qualify. If you are a translator with native or near-native English language skill and are interested in participating in this long-term program, please e-mail your resume to ....."
Just want your opinion. I realize professional translation customers will always expect a "real" person to translate any text and a "real person" to do any additional editing, but it seems there is a lot of room for "using" editors and turning them into "translators" for the price of an "editor". The translation company gets the original translation from that "high-quality machine" for free (after a one-time investment in that fabulous translation equipment or by receiving texts already translated by some other client's magic translation program) but will then expect the editor to deliver the perfect final text for cheap. If they can convince somebody to do it.
Somehow I have a feeling that the final text will not be a high-quality translation.
Or can someone tell me more about that wondrous machine. Then I might have to simply become an excellent editor working with fabulous translations. Easy job!
:0)
Your thoughts are appreciated.
PS: I am using CAT tools but I am not a machine.
[Edited at 2011-05-31 21:12 GMT]
... ProZ.com administration should immediately delete any ads requesting for editing machine translations and apply a permanent ban on any person or agency who dares to befoul Proz.com in such a way!
| | | | | Thankless job | May 31, 2011 |
The chances of the "high quality" machine translation being rubbish are of course significant. Even if the texts come out of a good MT program trained on lots of relevant material, I still wouldn't be interested... reviewing machine-translated texts all days is pretty close to my idea of hell. They'd have to play heavenly wages to tempt me to do such things.
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| Contradiction in terms? | May 31, 2011 |
If the translations are of such high quality, one wonders why highly-qualified editors who have spent as many as five years at university are needed to fix them...
See these recent thread... See more If the translations are of such high quality, one wonders why highly-qualified editors who have spent as many as five years at university are needed to fix them...
See these recent threads about "post-editing":
http://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/200063-a_major_agency_tries_to_impose_lower_rate_for_post_editing.html
http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/198101-post_editing_yes_or_no.html
(There may have been others, these are the ones I read).
It remains to be seen how much of an impact this fad will have. I've certainly seen a lot more talk about it lately, and even a few calls for post-editors to register with agencies, but no actual jobs so far. In the end, I suppose MT editing (as I prefer to call it) will only affect us to the extent that we let it. If it ever gets to the stage where I'm struggling to make a living as a result of turning down post-editing work, I'm sure I can find more interesting things to do!
[Edited at 2011-05-31 22:44 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 08:17
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The sad thing is... | May 31, 2011 |
that this trend will probably continue until someone dies or is seriously injured as a result of relying on MT output (without knowledge of the source text or editing MT output without knowledge of the source text or doing so quickly and fleetingly in order to make up for the loss of revenue) which can be misleading because even though the output may make sense grammatically, it sometimes is the exact opposite of the source text or bears no resemblance to the source text whatsoever.
... See more that this trend will probably continue until someone dies or is seriously injured as a result of relying on MT output (without knowledge of the source text or editing MT output without knowledge of the source text or doing so quickly and fleetingly in order to make up for the loss of revenue) which can be misleading because even though the output may make sense grammatically, it sometimes is the exact opposite of the source text or bears no resemblance to the source text whatsoever.
I suspect this extreme liability to lawsuits may be one of the reasons that starting in December 2011, it will no longer be possible for applications (such as CAT tools and translation websites) to use Google Translate (unless of course, the big T has bought exclusive rights to use GT in its CAT tool), putting these companies out of business unless they want to spend big bucks for a professional MT tool.
At any rate, I cannot understand why the agency is taking this route. It is not like we will charge less money to edit MT output.
[Edited at 2011-05-31 23:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 08:17
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | re-translating (not editing) a machine translation: I think NOT | Jun 1, 2011 |
Seriously!
Using automatic MT programs and expecting experienced professionals with university degrees to edit (= re-translate) these texts is irresponsible and unacceptable business practice. So is posting such a job. My opinion.
Thanks to all who replied so far.
[Edited at 2011-06-01 12:59 GMT]
| | | | | "High-quality machine translation"? | Jun 1, 2011 |
No way there is such a thing like "high-quality machine translation". That is what they think about the text. Now the important factor here is what you think about that assertment. It is critical that you get to see a fair sample of the text before reaching any agreement on the job!
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 05:17
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| My thought exactly | Jun 1, 2011 |
Peter Shortall wrote:
If the translations are of such high quality, one wonders why highly-qualified editors who have spent as many as five years at university are needed to fix them...
| | | | nordiste
France
Local time: 14:17
English to French
+ ...
| near-native English for high quality ? | Jun 1, 2011 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
From a recent proz.com job post:
"Company XXX plans to start a major program for editing high quality machine translation from several languages (European, South American, and Asian) into English.
A 4 or 5-year university degree is necessary to qualify. If you are a translator with native or near-native English language skill and are interested in participating in this long-term program, please e-mail your resume to ....."
I don't read this as an ad for a simple post-editing job, more for working as an expert to give input to the hight-quality translating machine in order to improve its corpus and quality for future translations in the same area. This is how expert systems work and "learn".
Anyway they seem ready to rely on "near-native" translators, which is not a very good sign for high quality.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I realize professional translation customers will always expect a "real" person to translate any text and a "real person" to do any additional editing, but it seems there is a lot of room for "using" editors and turning them into "translators" for the price of an "editor".
Don't make assumptions about what translation customers want. Many customers want an affordable product more than anything else (or is that also a sweeping assumption?).
The translation company ... will then expect the editor to deliver the perfect final text for cheap.
The editor should price his services based on what is profitable for him. Or, if the client sets the price, then the editor should put the client under no illusions about the quality that he can deliver for that price (in the time allotted to the editing).
Somehow I have a feeling that the final text will not be a high-quality translation.
The quality of any final translation will depend on how many quality control steps have been skipped -- this does not only apply to free-MT post-editing.
What is important here is that such editors should realise that they should [try to] ensure that they are not the last line of quality control. A free-MT post-editing process should not have just one post-editor.
PS. The job you mention has been posted elsewhere on the web, too, but without the mention of the university degree. Perhaps the university degree is simply the standard requirement for all of this agency's linguists, and is not specifically a requirement for the post-editing job.
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 14:17
French to Dutch
+ ...
The assumptions you all make here is that it was a free job and therefore low quality. Not all machine translations have been obtained by Google. Maybe there are thirty years of investments and huge TMs behind it. How can you judge something without having seen it.
As for the editors with university degree, or other revisors, who says that they are cheap. Bad work may be expensive, allright, but good work is never cheap.
And who says that the client will set the price?... See more The assumptions you all make here is that it was a free job and therefore low quality. Not all machine translations have been obtained by Google. Maybe there are thirty years of investments and huge TMs behind it. How can you judge something without having seen it.
As for the editors with university degree, or other revisors, who says that they are cheap. Bad work may be expensive, allright, but good work is never cheap.
And who says that the client will set the price? Typically proz.com thinking. Held your hand up and maybe your client will put something in it. And maybe you'll even be paid. Within 90 days.
Each job is different. And in all business sectors, companies make quotes.
NB I don't do much editing (am too busy), but I would prefer post-edit machine translation over editing human translation, because this always leads to endless discussions, hateful remarks and loss of clients. ▲ Collapse
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| Do not be mistaken | Jun 1, 2011 |
NMR wrote:
The assumptions you all make here is that it was a free job and therefore low quality. Not all machine translations have been obtained by Google. Maybe there are thirty years of investments and huge TMs behind it.
Don't count me in this kind of assumptions. I was not saying that the quality could be poor because it was done with Google... but because it was automatic translation. Even with a huge investment, a machine translation is a machine translation. Maybe a slightly better one, but a machine translation.
NMR wrote:
How can you judge something without having seen it.
That's why I recommended the translator to see the text before quoting on it.
So far I have only seen bad machine translations for editing... even with a big investment behind them.
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:17
French to English
+ ...
| Reservations, but broadly agree with last two posters... | Jun 1, 2011 |
I have some reservations about how various industries' apparent appetite and enthusiasm for Machine Translation will shape the translation market in the years ahead.
However, I also broadly agree with the last two posters that one shouldn't make a priori assumptions that "it's all bad".
The developers of MT systems and the computational linguistics community more broadly are generally quite open about the fact that MT offers a poor quality translation for cases where an... See more I have some reservations about how various industries' apparent appetite and enthusiasm for Machine Translation will shape the translation market in the years ahead.
However, I also broadly agree with the last two posters that one shouldn't make a priori assumptions that "it's all bad".
The developers of MT systems and the computational linguistics community more broadly are generally quite open about the fact that MT offers a poor quality translation for cases where an instant, cheap, poor quality translation is better than no translation at all.
So overall, I don't necessarily see MT as a threat to well-paid, high quality translation. I see it more as aiming at a different market... in principle. And then there are obviously some cases of client ignorance or greed which lead to MT being used inappropriately which as a community we should educate people about.
[Edited at 2011-06-01 11:06 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 08:17
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | asking for editing when really asking for translating is not a reputable business practice | Jun 1, 2011 |
Thanks for your input, Samuel. My main problem is that, as always, somebody is trying to make something seem oh so normal and reputable while (possibly) trying to get away with cashing in.
I have a profile on proz.com and right here, a company seriously suggests that there is such a thing as "high-quality machine translation". Do I go along with that assumption? No. Does proz.com?
Show me an example of ANY machine translation. It is most likely an incoherent mess.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I realize professional translation customers will always expect a "real" person to translate any text and a "real person" to do any additional editing, but it seems there is a lot of room for "using" editors and turning them into "translators" for the price of an "editor". Don't make assumptions about what translation customers want. Many customers want an affordable product more than anything else (or is that also a sweeping assumption?).
That's exactly it. Many customers want an affordable and good translation. Nothing wrong with that. I was merely pointing out that having an editor work on an MT translation might be trying to "abuse" him/her. Why? I have never seen a good MT translation. I wouldn't touch such a text. If I did, it would be a "translation" job, not an "editing" job. The problem I am having with this is that a translation company posting such a job possibly sees this as an "editing job" for an "editor" for half the price of a translation. Or why else do you think they call it post-editing? Surely not because the MT translation is already great and it is indeed "just" an editing job.
It surely looks like somebody is trying to make money.
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:The translation company ... will then expect the editor to deliver the perfect final text for cheap. The editor should price his services based on what is profitable for him. Or, if the client sets the price, then the editor should put the client under no illusions about the quality that he can deliver for that price (in the time allotted to the editing).
Again, I am merely drawing attention to the fact that this is not an editing job and a company calling it that tells me that they seriously expect a cheaper rate than that charged for a translation. I think that's what could be going on here.
And in the end they will deliver something that seems grammatically correct but is botched up by somebody who didn't mind "doing a little editing".
What kind of a business approach is that? Let's not be naive about that. A reputable translation company that seriously thinks an MT translation is something that can be fixed up by editing? Who are they kidding?
Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Somehow I have a feeling that the final text will not be a high-quality translation. The quality of any final translation will depend on how many quality control steps have been skipped -- this does not only apply to free-MT post-editing. What is important here is that such editors should realise that they should [try to] ensure that they are not the last line of quality control. A free-MT post-editing process should not have just one post-editor.
Yes, I would hope there is more to such an endeavor than an automatic MT and one MT post-editor. But calling it editing of a high quality machine translation surely implies to me that this editor is probably expected to be the final editor.
But you are already assuming that the process is okay using the MT. I don't. And I believe calling it MT post-editing is ridiculous. Have you ever tried "editing" a machine translation?
Samuel Murray wrote:
PS. The job you mention has been posted elsewhere on the web, too, but without the mention of the university degree. Perhaps the university degree is simply the standard requirement for all of this agency's linguists, and is not specifically a requirement for the post-editing job.
Yes, that might well be the case. Elsewhere in the job post it says: "...Please only apply if your language capability is close to that of a native English speaker because you will be editing for correct English."
Wow, no kidding, "editing" for correct English. Because what you're going to be editing is certainly not correct English.
Calling this job an editing job is like saying give us your best "editing rate".
Why would we who have profiles here want to be associated with such business practices? It's like condoning them.
There is no such thing as a "high-quality MT translation" but that's what is implied in the job post.
Just my thoughts.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2011-06-01 12:51 GMT]
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