| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Editing texts by non-native speakers: is there any literature? Thread poster: Diane Grosklaus Whitty
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Neil Coffey 
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:15
French to English
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| Be careful to compare like with like | Mar 30, 2010 |
Diane Grosklaus Whitty wrote:
My current policy is to refuse such jobs, because (1) they often take more time than the actual translation would have taken; (2) you are never certain you have caught all the mistakes, since a relatively intact sentence, in grammatical terms, may in fact not be communicating the author's idea; and (3), let's be honest, I hate this kind of work, and who doesn't (speak up if you love it; haven't met anyone yet).
I'm wondering if there is any literature out there that backs up my second reason for not doing this work. Or any literature at all on this topic.
In terms of the literature, some general ESL literature as I think Sheila mentioned would be useful, plus actually literature for English learners of the given language can have some resources (e.g. lists of faux amis) which will also be useful.
However, I disagree with your premises as generalities: some people do reach a very high level of competence in what is strictly a "non native" language, to the point that their work doesn't necessarily require any more changes overall than that of a native speaker, and where their ability to communicate the message may actually be helped by the fact that they're a native speaker in the source language. (And conversely, I know that when I proofread translations from English, I sometimes need to propose changes due to the translator not quite appreciating the sense of the English even though their writing skills in the target language, their native language, are very good.)
If you're being proposed work that's not worth your while, then you should refuse that work. But this could happen in either language direction.
[Edited at 2010-03-30 17:41 GMT]
| | | | | Editing near-native speakers | Mar 31, 2010 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
However, I disagree with your premises as generalities: some people do reach a very high level of competence in what is strictly a "non native" language, to the point that their work doesn't necessarily require any more changes overall than that of a native speaker, and where their ability to communicate the message may actually be helped by the fact that they're a native speaker in the source language. (And conversely, I know that when I proofread translations from English, I sometimes need to propose changes due to the translator not quite appreciating the sense of the English even though their writing skills in the target language, their native language, are very good.)
[Edited at 2010-03-30 17:41 GMT]
I don't deny the existence of people with near-native fluency in a second language. It is simply my experience as a PT>EN translator that those people are few and far between.
Perhaps this in part stems from the fact that I do a lot of work in the academic area (social sciences, history, etc.), which might influence my experience with editing: authors who often have excellent vocabularies, expert knowledge of the jargon in their fields, and may have spent time living in an English-language country. But when they go to express an abstract notion or delve into theoretical constructs in English, often in paragraph-long sentences, the result can be quite messy, and all too often perplexing.
In any case, my question is not about whether I should take the work. I don't do editing. I've had enough experiences where I took on what looked to be a doable text and found it much worse than at first read.
My question is whether the journal I translate for should be accepting texts in English from non-native speakers. Theoretically, an evaluation of the quality of the text can be made on a case-by-case basis, and then the accepted texts can be given to someone specialized in editing. That's how I see it at least.
But practically, this process gets pricey. As several people have commented, clients tend to see editing as something that should cost much less than a translation. Also, I'm not sure my client can find someone who is qualified. And here my premise is that you do indeed need to be specifically experienced in editing (not proofreading) to do it properly, something that this thread has made apparent to me.
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:15
French to English
+ ...
| Particularities of academia | Mar 31, 2010 |
Diane Grosklaus Whitty wrote:
My question is whether the journal I translate for should be accepting texts in English from non-native speakers. Theoretically, an evaluation of the quality of the text can be made on a case-by-case basis, and then the accepted texts can be given to someone specialized in editing. That's how I see it at least.
Well, the interesting situation that we have with English is that there are more non-native speakers than there are native speakers. The truth is, rightly or wrongly, it's also common in academia for papers written by non-native English speakers to be published whose English has features of a non-native speaker (whether that's due to no editing, or editing by people who are not really sensitive to the idea of turning the text into one that truly sounds as though it was written from the outset by a native speaker). It just seems to have become accepted that academics are used enough to reading "non-native" English for it not to be such a big issue.
There are even occasional constructions which appear to be used by native speakers of English in academic papers which weren't originally part of native speaker English ("It was investigated whether...").
Diane Grosklaus Whitty wrote:
But practically, this process gets pricey.
If they're really bothered, most university departments can find a native English speaking graduate student to edit a paper for the price of a cup of coffee. I'm not sure it's actually the cost that's the issue so much as efficiency of process.
That said, it can depend. In some countries (unlike the UK), academics are actually comparatively well paid, so that those with pride in their work actually do find a reasonable budget for translation/editing and it *can* be a very worthwhile source of income compared to other clients in that country.
[Edited at 2010-03-31 03:33 GMT]
| | | | | It is a job that will always need to be done | Mar 31, 2010 |
... But it does take specialists, and editors should either enjoy doing it properly or find something they are happier with.
If academics want their work published in the world, then it is no use writing about it in Danish (spoken by about 5.5 million in Denmark and a diaspora...) or hundreds of other languages.
English is difficult, because expressions that my ´tribe´ and I use quite naturally are ´twisted phrases that no native would ever use´ according to one p... See more ... But it does take specialists, and editors should either enjoy doing it properly or find something they are happier with.
If academics want their work published in the world, then it is no use writing about it in Danish (spoken by about 5.5 million in Denmark and a diaspora...) or hundreds of other languages.
English is difficult, because expressions that my ´tribe´ and I use quite naturally are ´twisted phrases that no native would ever use´ according to one proofreader who thought I was Danish...
And it may be very difficult to rephrase some sentences without changing the meaning or altering the balance.
I wonder whether the question of ´native´ quality is overshadowing the real issue, which is the meaning of the source text. Elegant style comes second. Having said that, I admit that it is infinitely easier to read a text when the style is not too cramped.
Often translations from Danish - the examples I know - make much better sense if the elements of the sentence are simply rearranged.
The company has since its establishment in 1909 always, because we believe in quality, provided an excellent service for our customers
would be quite acceptable in Danish.
Since its establishment in 1909
the company has
always
provided an excellent service for our customers
because we believe in quality.
That arrangement is more logical to (my) English mind, but somehow very tame compared with the original in Danish. Should I leave it at that, or should I try to perk it up somehow?
In an academic text, probably not, but in a marketing text yes, definitely.
Once one starts editing, it is hard to stop...
It is a dilemma, and in the end it can only be solved case by case. I have also been criticised - by a Danish proofreader for an agency I do not work for - because the way I tidied up made the text more difficult to understand.
The agency proofreader admitted she was Danish, but had lived many years in the UK. She still preferred what I considered to be clearly Danglish.
Readers who are not themselves native speakers may find their own brand of ESL easier to understand than the variety we British regard as ´the real thing´. In the same way we may have difficulty amongst ourselves with regional accents, perhaps more than some of the other twenty seven varieties on the Microsoft Spell checker
When proofreading/editing/ revising I work very much on the principle of If it ain´t broke, don´t fix it! but it is impossible to define reliably where the line goes between acceptable and ´needs fixin´ ...
It may be wise to leave the non-native phrasing now and then because the meaning is perfectly clear and tampering does not improve it.
The real danger is the risk of producing smooth-running, elegant prose that simply does not render accurately what the writer wanted to say, and in academic texts the meaning must be the first consideration.
It is a fine balance. I must get hold of some of the books recommended by urbom and re-read some of my own... ▲ Collapse
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| Ferreting out hidden meanings | Mar 31, 2010 |
Christine, I think you make a number of good points (e.g., the danger of not knowing when to stop editing -- one of the features that means editing requires training and experience) but this one hits at the crux of my concerns:
Christine Andersen wrote:
The real danger is the risk of producing smooth-running, elegant prose that simply does not render accurately what the writer wanted to say, and in academic texts the meaning must be the first consideration.
Yes, native-English-speaking academics who want access to information that would otherwise be lost in a language they don't read can be asked to overlook structures that may not sound English to their native ears. But what about the meanings that may get lost? An editor of a text written by a non-native speaker can often misconstrue an intended idea. It takes a special kind of translator's intuition to sense that something is not quite right despite relatively smooth grammar, structure, etc. In my view, that person must either be so specialized in a narrow field that s/he almost knows where the author is going at each step, or else be trained to have that intuition. Once it's clear a meaning has been muddled, then the author has to be contacted for clarification.
While we translators should be well placed to become this kind of editor, I don't think it's automatically the case. Yet it's what clients think. And what they often expect to get at rock-bottom prices.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 12:15
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Contact with the writer is essential | Mar 31, 2010 |
Diane Grosklaus Whitty wrote: Christine Andersen wrote:
The real danger is the risk of producing smooth-running, elegant prose that simply does not render accurately what the writer wanted to say, and in academic texts the meaning must be the first consideration. It takes a special kind of translator's intuition to sense that something is not quite right despite relatively smooth grammar, structure, etc. ..... Once it's clear a meaning has been muddled, then the author has to be contacted for clarification.
Most certainly, we need access to the writer of the document who will understand our changes and can comment on whether we have corrected and improved the phrase or changed its meaning.
After all, we're translators not mind-readers.
| | | | juvera
Local time: 12:15
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Just a quick note | Apr 1, 2010 |
I wholeheartedly agree with Neil:
...some people do reach a very high level of competence in what is strictly a "non native" language, to the point that their work doesn't necessarily require any more changes overall than that of a native speaker, and where their ability to communicate the message may actually be helped by the fact that they're a native speaker in the source language.
The reviewing/editing of the translation of a native speaker in the target language can be just as tiresome when the translator is unable to comprehend the finer points of the source language.
Thanks for the interesting and useful discussion, and especially for the contributions of urbom, Neil and Christine.
Now allow me a spot of proofing
Suzan Hamer wrote:
Should that be Rumplestiltskinning?
Actually, it should be RumpELstiltskinning
| | | | Suzan Hamer
Netherlands
Local time: 13:15
English
+ ...
| Ooooops! (How embarrassing!) Thanks, Juvera. Nobody's perfect. Which is why we need proofreaders. | Apr 2, 2010 |
juvera wrote: I wholeheartedly agree with Neil:
...some people do reach a very high level of competence in what is strictly a "non native" language, to the point that their work doesn't necessarily require any more changes overall than that of a native speaker, and where their ability to communicate the message may actually be helped by the fact that they're a native speaker in the source language.
The reviewing/editing of the translation of a native speaker in the target language can be just as tiresome when the translator is unable to comprehend the finer points of the source language. Thanks for the interesting and useful discussion, and especially for the contributions of urbom, Neil and Christine. Now allow me a spot of proofing Suzan Hamer wrote:
Should that be Rumplestiltskinning? Actually, it should be RumpELstiltskinning
[Edited at 2010-04-02 19:06 GMT]
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