| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Don't offer reductions for post-editing Thread poster: Nicholas Miller
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Nicholas Miller 
Czech Republic
Local time: 14:32
Member (2014)
Czech to English
+ ...
Hi guys, you've probably read it several times already, but here's my two cents.
I'm getting more and more MT/AI post-editing requests and expectations to reduce rates.
COVID, energy crisis, inflation, use their online systems (lose the option to use your own TMs), and now this. I'm refusing to reduce rates for this and I think all freelancers should.
- Dubious time saving and workflow improvements are not worth it if there is less work and less income, not to mention the detr... See more Hi guys, you've probably read it several times already, but here's my two cents.
I'm getting more and more MT/AI post-editing requests and expectations to reduce rates.
COVID, energy crisis, inflation, use their online systems (lose the option to use your own TMs), and now this. I'm refusing to reduce rates for this and I think all freelancers should.
- Dubious time saving and workflow improvements are not worth it if there is less work and less income, not to mention the detriment to human verbal expression.
- The more we feed these machines, the less work there will be for us ultimately. You might get ahead of the competition in the short-term, but what about the long-term?
Do you wonder if you'll make it to retirement as a translator or have to find another field?
Have a nice day... ▲ Collapse
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I do agree with you, but as I see it the problem started with CAT tools and the considerable price reductions they entail. I must add that I still don’t use CAT tools and however I feel about it, I know they are here to stay. Fortunately (?), I’m well over retiring age. I do hope that it doesn't take over the work I do, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens at some point. As CAT tools grids were accepted, the logical next step is to accept PEMT reductions…
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 14:32
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Nicholas Miller wrote:
I'm refusing to reduce rates for this and I think all freelancers should.
If applied to the proper texts machine translation can speed up things considerably, so it's perfectly possible to work for a lower rate when you do MTPE. You just have to make sure you only accept it for texts that are worth it. Of course I can only speak for my language pairs. Perhaps machine translation is total crap in your language pairs, but in mine it isn't. Anyway, my MTPE rate is about 60-70% of my translation rate and that rate allows me to keep my earnings at the same level. I have to add that you have to train yourself. Ultimately MTPE is a skill like any other. You get better at it by doing it more. If you expect to see the benefits from machine translation the first couple of times you use it, you might get very disappointed.
Nicholas Miller wrote:
The more we feed these machines, the less work there will be for us ultimately.
That is very unsure, imo. I'll keep on saying it: as long as machines aren't able to think and feel as a human, progress in machine translation will be limited. If the day comes that machines can think and feel as humans do, well yes, then all translators are f****d, but so will the rest of humanity be. I mean, then it would really no longer be an issue for translators alone but for every professional out there. And knowing that the brain, at least partly, works still in mysterious ways for scientists, it seems highly unlikely that machines will become 'humans' soon.
Nicholas Miller wrote:
Do you wonder if you'll make it to retirement as a translator or have to find another field?
I have 22 years to go to make it to my retirement (I would be 67 by then, yay), so I'm the last person who will say that I will be able to keep working as a translator. I most definitely consider the possibility that I won't, but I really don't know that. What I do know (or at least am convinced of) is that a lot of translators will be forced to leave the industry if they keep on refusing to adapt to new technologies. Those technologies won't go away, on the contrary, they will be increasingly used. With all due respect, but thoughts like 'All freelancers should refuse to reduce their rates for MTPE' aren't very wise. Simply because it will never happen and the only people who will be the victim of that refusal will be the larger part of the people themselves who refuse.
That being said, if the day comes I can no longer survive as a translator, I will be happy to do whatever other kind of work. In Belgium several industries are in permanent great need of workers.
[Edited at 2023-01-20 10:57 GMT]
[Edited at 2023-01-20 11:07 GMT]
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Nicholas Miller wrote:
Hi guys, you've probably read it several times already, but here's my two cents.
I'm getting more and more MT/AI post-editing requests and expectations to reduce rates.
COVID, energy crisis, inflation, use their online systems (lose the option to use your own TMs), and now this. I'm refusing to reduce rates for this and I think all freelancers should.
- Dubious time saving and workflow improvements are not worth it if there is less work and less income, not to mention the detriment to human verbal expression.
- The more we feed these machines, the less work there will be for us ultimately. You might get ahead of the competition in the short-term, but what about the long-term?
Do you wonder if you'll make it to retirement as a translator or have to find another field?
Have a nice day...
Surely if you don't want to feed the machines, you shouldn't be refusing to lower your rates but refusing to do this work at all...
I don't feel particularly threatened because 85% of my time is spent tarting up my own raw translation output. So even if MT does eventually match my first draft, it won't be a massive hit.
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| What is your question about? | Jan 20, 2023 |
Is it about PEMT being paid less than actual translation? It's 100% logical for many types of texts, and for those it doesn't work for - just don't take those jobs, even if offered. It would be naive to hope clients (at least those who do the thinking and maths) would be paying the same price where they can get by using PEMT at less cost.
Or is it about the rate itself, shall it be X% or Y% of the translation rate? 60-70% indicated by Lieven is acceptable for me too - again, with the kind... See more Is it about PEMT being paid less than actual translation? It's 100% logical for many types of texts, and for those it doesn't work for - just don't take those jobs, even if offered. It would be naive to hope clients (at least those who do the thinking and maths) would be paying the same price where they can get by using PEMT at less cost.
Or is it about the rate itself, shall it be X% or Y% of the translation rate? 60-70% indicated by Lieven is acceptable for me too - again, with the kind of texts I usually have on my plate. This rate can vary on certain individual factors that would be obvious for anybody actually working with PEMT. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | For some people... | Jan 20, 2023 |
less income is better than no income.
| | | | Nicholas Miller
Czech Republic
Local time: 14:32
Member (2014)
Czech to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Summary reply | Jan 20, 2023 |
Interesting replies. Thanks.
Here are my thoughts
Logic?
Is it logical to keep accepting more and more compromises? Not draw the line anywhere?
Don't accept these projects? Okay, use of these MT translation systems is cropping up everywhere, so how about meeting halfway? If agencies value their translators... many obviously don't...
CAT reductions were a stepping stone in this direction, but they were originally meant to be an advantage... See more Interesting replies. Thanks.
Here are my thoughts
Logic?
Is it logical to keep accepting more and more compromises? Not draw the line anywhere?
Don't accept these projects? Okay, use of these MT translation systems is cropping up everywhere, so how about meeting halfway? If agencies value their translators... many obviously don't...
CAT reductions were a stepping stone in this direction, but they were originally meant to be an advantage for the translator, not a means to exploit them. Progress should be about making things better for all of us, not exploitation. Do the savings reach the end client? Really?
The next stage in this are agencies’ online systems, which prevent freelancers using their own software and TMs. The agency owns the whole thing. As with MT, you're kind of working against yourself here as well, in the long run.
Low income better than no income? Freelancers have to be on-call and available. If they take other kinds of work or regular employment, they won't be on-call
As this is private enterprise, it's difficult to expect much solidarity, and agencies count on that. However, I think it's something to think about, solidarity certainly exists in other industries, and it needn't be overt. I though I'd put it out there, perhaps provocatively for some, and see what people's reactions were, if any. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 14:32
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Continuation. | Jan 20, 2023 |
Nicholas Miller wrote:
Is it logical to keep accepting more and more compromises? Not draw the line anywhere?
The line is where you lose income. If technology helps you to become faster, you can lower your prices without losing income. It's perfectly legit to do that as a translator. It's even smart, because it increases your competitiveness (higher availability and prioritization over competitors who don't offer MTPE).
Nicholas Miller wrote:
CAT reductions were a stepping stone in this direction, but they were originally meant to be an advantage for the translator, not a means to exploit them.
You have the right to work exclusively for direct clients, then all the CAT and MT related advantages go your way. But if you work for agencies that provide you with work and part or the whole of the technological process, then it's quite normal they want a piece of the cake.
Nicholas Miller wrote:
Do the savings reach the end client? Really?
Who knows? But again: if it bothers you, then only work for direct clients.
Nicholas Miller wrote:
The next stage in this are agencies’ online systems, which prevent freelancers using their own software and TMs. The agency owns the whole thing. As with MT, you're kind of working against yourself here as well, in the long run.
I work for one client that has a fully integrated system, including its own CAT tool, but they offer the possibility to work with your own CAT tool as well. If that possibility would be absent, I would refuse to work for the agency. Never forget you are your own boss.
Nicholas Miller wrote:
Low income better than no income? Freelancers have to be on-call and available. If they take other kinds of work or regular employment, they won't be on-call
I think Giovanni meant that some freelancers would prefer working for a lower (but still more or less acceptable) income than for no income at all, not that you would only work part-time as a translator.
Nicholas Miller wrote:
I think it's something to think about, solidarity certainly exists in other industries, and it needn't be overt.
Solidarity between companies (because that is what we really are) seems really odd. We are competitors, man. We do what we can to do and be better than the rest.
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:32
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
.... CAT tools and the considerable price reductions they entail.…
CAT tools do not entail price reductions, any more than paying your plumber less because he buys some new tools
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 14:32
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Tom in London wrote: Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
.... CAT tools and the considerable price reductions they entail.… CAT tools do not entail price reductions, any more than paying your plumber less because he buys some new tools
This logic seems to only be used in translation. In all other industries, products become more expensive, not less expensive after mechanization, so that profit margins can increase.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 14:32
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Tom in London wrote:
CAT tools do not entail price reductions, any more than paying your plumber less because he buys some new tools
If those tools make him work faster, you will definitely pay less.
| | | | | Only if he applies the same hourly rates | Jan 20, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote: Tom in London wrote:
CAT tools do not entail price reductions, any more than paying your plumber less because he buys some new tools If those tools make him work faster, you will definitely pay less.
he applied before )
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 14:32
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Car accident | Jan 20, 2023 |
Christel Zipfel wrote: he applied before )
Correct. And also only if he or she doesn't suddenly dies in a car accident. .
It is seldom only the business itself that reaps all the fruits of innovation. You will lose many clients if you want everything for yourself. Producing cheaper means in a lot of industries also selling cheaper.
| | | | | value creation | Jan 20, 2023 |
For me, automatic translations are scrap unless they have been 'whacked' into shape by the 'old engineer with the hammer'.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 08:32
Spanish to English
+ ...
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