| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Disagrees in KudoZ and political correctness Thread poster: AllegroTrans
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Kristina Love 
United States
Local time: 02:11
Spanish to English
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| Does the word "nonsense" belong in a peer comment? | Aug 6, 2021 |
In my opinion, it does not. "Nonsense" is not a linguistic critique. Some might feel that this word is "factual" and "unbiased" or "truthful," but I feel that it is unnecessarily personal without compensating by imparting any useful information at all. It is just a dressed-up way of saying, "You suck." No one has said this to me, but I have seen it done and I won't let it pass without at least registering that I disapprove of any translator speaking this way to another.
I also ... See more In my opinion, it does not. "Nonsense" is not a linguistic critique. Some might feel that this word is "factual" and "unbiased" or "truthful," but I feel that it is unnecessarily personal without compensating by imparting any useful information at all. It is just a dressed-up way of saying, "You suck." No one has said this to me, but I have seen it done and I won't let it pass without at least registering that I disapprove of any translator speaking this way to another.
I also agree with those who reserve their "disagrees" for answers that are dead wrong and not merely "not the best choice." While some answers are truly not fitting and shouldn't be considered, translation is subjective to a large degree. Of course "neutral" needs to be an option.
I would also say that it's very important, before disagreeing, to do at least a little cursory research to confirm your suspicion that the translation is incorrect. I have seen harsh "disagrees" meted out in which it was evident that the disagree-er had not actually read the entire explanation. Nor had they stopped to think rationally about whether the answer represented a good faith effort which resulted in, while maybe not the ideal choice, an arguably reasonable conclusion that had at least some legitimate support.
Upon looking at the profile of this disagree-er, I discovered that their working languages did not even include the language of the KudoZ question they were peer-commenting on, which might have meant that not only did they not bother to read the person's entire answer, they may have been incapable of reading it because they may not read in that language!
Participating in KudoZ questions in languages outside my own working knowledge is not something I'd do, and I'd be surprised if I'm alone in thinking that this...well, isn't a great thing to do.
Most importantly of all though: whether your KudoZ answers are consistently stellar or consistently poor, everybody has an equal right to participate. Maybe some of us are still learning but we are willing to apply some conscientious effort and keep trying. Who has the right to discourage anyone else from even trying by saying that the results of their honest efforts are "nonsense"? Show some class. ▲ Collapse
| | | | AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:11
Member (2011)
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER
I beg to differ; "nonsense" is decidedly a linguistic term and it plainly means that something does not make sense. If a translator posts something (in their own native language) which is patently nonsensical I think it is fair comment to say so. I would not use this comment for mere beginners nor would I use it lightly. However where a site user claiming to be a translator with many years of experience posts nonsensical text in succession, well... you get my drift.
| | | | Kristina Love
United States
Local time: 02:11
Spanish to English
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| At least be right! | Aug 6, 2021 |
Well, I expect that a good number would agree with you that it's fair to say "nonsense" when it is.
What about saying "nonsense" when it isn't? In that case the "nonsense-sayer" is actually the "nonsense-producer." If you mess up and say something's nonsense when it isn't...people will start to notice that.
If the source text is in a language you don't know, even if the target is English and you do know English...you really wouldn't know if the translation is nons... See more Well, I expect that a good number would agree with you that it's fair to say "nonsense" when it is.
What about saying "nonsense" when it isn't? In that case the "nonsense-sayer" is actually the "nonsense-producer." If you mess up and say something's nonsense when it isn't...people will start to notice that.
If the source text is in a language you don't know, even if the target is English and you do know English...you really wouldn't know if the translation is nonsense or not. Especially if you don't bother checking first!
Bottom line: someone who's been caught three times proclaiming "nonsense" unfoundedly should definitely not say it anymore, whether or not other people should. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Look at it from another angle | Aug 7, 2021 |
Kristina Love wrote:
Well, I expect that a good number would agree with you that it's fair to say "nonsense" when it is.
Yes.
What about saying "nonsense" when it isn't?
But that wasn't your question. You asked:
Does the word "nonsense" belong in a peer comment?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no, so the answer is (in general, as you asked), is "maybe.
But here comes the more important part:
In that case the "nonsense-sayer" is actually the "nonsense-producer." If you mess up and say something's nonsense when it isn't...people will start to notice that.
Yesssss! EXACTLY. And that can be a good thing. I say people have the right to make fools of themselves in public. Potential clients have access to KudoZ questions/answers, and many of us are potential clients for our peers, for example when we look for a proofreader, sharing a larger job or recommending colleagues to clients.
KudoZ (and the Forums, too) helped me immensely over the past 20 years in this regard. I found great colleagues that I regularly collaborate with, and I know whom to avoid due to the lack of subject knowledge and/or communication skills, or too big ego.
If the source text is in a language you don't know, even if the target is English and you do know English...you really wouldn't know if the translation is nonsense or not. Especially if you don't bother checking first!
You can reply to peer comments, but do not take these things personally. You can politely point out that the language is not listed in the answerers profile, and ask for detailed explanation for his comment, if it only says "Nonsense".
You can also add a note to your answer, and elaborate further on why you think your answer makes sense.
Bottom line: someone who's been caught three times proclaiming "nonsense" unfoundedly should definitely not say it anymore, whether or not other people should.
Well, yeah, but again, if they keep doing it, it only hurts them. Let them destroy their own reputation.
[Edited at 2021-08-07 05:21 GMT]
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Paul Dixon
Brazil
Local time: 03:11
Portuguese to English
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| All disagrees | Aug 7, 2021 |
In a recent KudoZ question we have had one case where ALL answers were disagreed by the same person. To what extent is this allowed or ethical? Interestingly, 1) the question as posted made no logical sense (so, technically speaking, all the answers were guesses - none had a confidence level of 5) 2) the multidisagreer has no information at all on his profile except the fact that he works with Wordfast and memoQ. (The poster has a full profile).
| | | | AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:11
Member (2011)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | All disagrees (qua Paul Dixon) | Aug 7, 2021 |
Well they say all is fair in love and war, but of course ProZ is neither love nor war, it's a professional site where peers are entitled to rigorously comment on translation suggestions. The example quoted (of a user without a meaningful profile posting a disagree to every suggestion on a particular question) is certainly not contrary to site rules. Whether it makes that person credible is a matter entirely of opinion. There are experienced translators on the site who have no information in thei... See more Well they say all is fair in love and war, but of course ProZ is neither love nor war, it's a professional site where peers are entitled to rigorously comment on translation suggestions. The example quoted (of a user without a meaningful profile posting a disagree to every suggestion on a particular question) is certainly not contrary to site rules. Whether it makes that person credible is a matter entirely of opinion. There are experienced translators on the site who have no information in their profile. If I see six answers to a question and believe them all to be wrong, I will say so. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kristina Love
United States
Local time: 02:11
Spanish to English
+ ...
If I didn't understand someone's disagree on my Answer I'd ask them to explain further, like you say.
What would you do if it was not your Answer being called nonsense, but someone else's? (And it wasn't nonsense?)
Maybe it's better to mind my own business. But sometimes I'm not sure people at large really will notice that something labeled "nonsense" actually isn't nonsense, unless someone goes to the trouble to point it out. Especially if people have already written... See more If I didn't understand someone's disagree on my Answer I'd ask them to explain further, like you say.
What would you do if it was not your Answer being called nonsense, but someone else's? (And it wasn't nonsense?)
Maybe it's better to mind my own business. But sometimes I'm not sure people at large really will notice that something labeled "nonsense" actually isn't nonsense, unless someone goes to the trouble to point it out. Especially if people have already written off a person who has made some previous mistakes - and assumes that any criticisms directed at them from there forward must be justified. Which means that someone who is being negligent and jumping to unfounded conclusions won't even be recognized as doing such. Sometimes the person for whatever reason doesn't bother to defend their own Answer. Maybe I should have more faith that this will work itself out without my intervention. But I do feel bad for the unfairly labeled Answerer - even when they get it right, they get nothing but scathing criticism. And I want the truth to be noticed, not overlooked.
I can imagine scenarios where "nonsense" is used in a more impersonal, technical, and non-offensive sense, while I can also observe how it is used in a pejorative sense, which I think more likely and common. I'm sure we can all admit (or maybe we can't?) that if someone labels our work "nonsense," even when well-intended, not only does it hurt, it's potentially damaging to our reputation and career. Is everyone but me really saying this isn't the case? (OK, but that's a little hard for me to believe.) I'm a little surprised that the more tender-hearted among us are keeping their silence. But I suppose most sensitive people are loathe to rock the boat as I am doing (regretfully yet somehow inexorably).
Anyway, Katalin...thanks for your response to me. You've given me food for thought (in particular I'm contemplating how I can do a better job of minding my own business in the future.) ▲ Collapse
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 08:11
Spanish to English
+ ...
lexical wrote:
...the native speakers in Kudoz pairs rarely disagree with one another, except on points of emphasis. The answerers who cause contributors to post "Disagrees" are nearly always non-native speakers who overestimate their linguistic skills.
Not always. For example, there is currently a contributor in my pair (ES-EN) who is a native English speaker (or appears to be) but frequently posts wrong answers, showing that they have got the wrong end of the stick. I have come to the conclusion that this person is what in current parlance could be described as "a bit spectrum", which goes to show that not all quasi-autistic individuals are geniuses like Sherlock Holmes or whoever, and are still just merely human, with all our concomitant failings.
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| If someone else's answer is called "nonsense"? | Aug 10, 2021 |
Kristina Love wrote:
What would you do if it was not your Answer being called nonsense, but someone else's? (And it wasn't nonsense?)
If it is a good answer and I agree with it, I would post an Agree and explain why I think it is not only not nonsense, but it is the right answer.
If it is not a good answer to the question and as such I don't agree with it, but it has some merit or there is a situation where it would be good (except not the context that was asked), then I may post a "Neutral" and explain that.
If it is not a good answer at all, I would disagree with it, and explain why.
Don't be surprised if some answerers don't bother "defending" their answers, especially if those are good answers. Sometimes it doesn't worth the time to argue with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. Some of us are very busy, so we help when we can, but then we may not have time to go back and see what other answers are there or what happened after we posted an answer. The truth is that sometimes answerers put in a great deal of effort, argue with each other at length, and then the asker selects the worst possible answer, or better yet - disappears. It is your choice to get frustrated or even angry about it, or not.
That said, if you encounter someone who is commenting rudely on answers, not focusing on the linguistic merits of the answer, or otherwise violates site rules, don't hesitate to contact the moderator - the link is at the bottom of each Kudoz page.
| | | | Kristina Love
United States
Local time: 02:11
Spanish to English
+ ...
| @ Katalin - I'm learning quickly that this is so! | Aug 11, 2021 |
I can really see what an incredible time-suck KudoZ can be. It can be fun and addicting. But it really hasn't taken me long at all to experience exactly what you're talking about.
While some people can disagree disrespectfully and experience no blow-back (and even get patted on the back by peers for being tough and no-nonsense), I recently disagreed (respectfully, with a specific reason) and got bombarded with furious, incoherent arguments, after which the Asker picked the answer... See more I can really see what an incredible time-suck KudoZ can be. It can be fun and addicting. But it really hasn't taken me long at all to experience exactly what you're talking about.
While some people can disagree disrespectfully and experience no blow-back (and even get patted on the back by peers for being tough and no-nonsense), I recently disagreed (respectfully, with a specific reason) and got bombarded with furious, incoherent arguments, after which the Asker picked the answer that was absurdly incorrect. And I was absurdly frustrated. So that lesson is learned.
Now it seems to me that a wise way to do KudoZ is to spend as little time as possible on it. Only pick the easiest questions or just give guesses to help brainstorm, and put a 10-minute limit of time investment on it. It would take too much time to learn which Askers are not worth it and avoid them.
More than that, I'm already starting to learn that it might be best to avoid KudoZ and even the forums and just use ProZ to find work, and maybe watch training videos, or ask purely technical questions that have no chance of veering into anything that contains thoughts, opinions, or feelings. I'm starting to figure out what the vast majority of members have probably figured out: to put it mildly, it's not easy to make friends with people who see you as a competitor/interloper.
It only took me a few weeks, so that's not too bad.
I did contact the moderator about the previously mentioned "disrespectful disagree" situation, but don't know whether it had an effect because there was never a response.
[Edited at 2021-08-11 00:39 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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