| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Obvious Kudoz questions from people claiming to be able to translate into English Thread poster: Tom in London
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| Andrea, yes, that's the one. | Dec 10, 2008 |
ariffo wrote: I don't have much time to wade through that thread, but is it the one where we learnt that Rule 2.1 is not really a rule but merely a suggestion, and therefore not enforceable?? (whereas the "no commenting on people's answers/question" rule is, in fact a RULE and therefore enforceable???) I must say, I didn't see that one coming and felt cheated somehow. My utter disappointment was the last straw that made me choose NOT to renew my subscription here, no matter how many e-mails I receive. Greetings Andrea
| | | | | Not so in my experience | Dec 10, 2008 |
BarbaraT wrote:
Many have been the times when I have found myself working on another "translator's" work because the agency did not consider it professional. I'll bet that they will not being receiving too many offers from the customers they cheated.
Here's a little conversation I had with a client of mine whom I have been working with for over three years:
Me: I just took a quick look at this translator's work, and if I were you, I would ask him to clean up his mess before handing it to someone to review. The translation is not usable.
Client: I've been working with this translator for years, he is great.
Me: Well, I don't see what is great about his work. He omits parts of the source segment and adds things that weren't in the source segment, doesn't use the preferred terminology, clearly doesn't proofread anything seeing all the spelling and grammar errors.
Me: Why don't you just review his work? Don't be so zealous.
If I had a dollar for each translator whose work I reviewed who can't write better than a fifth-grader, I'd be rich. And people do keep giving them work. You want to know why? Because real translators are so few and far between that they have to work with incompetent people - there are simply not enough competent people to handle the work. Let's not forget that the market is full of agencies who were founded by such mediocre translators. So, many of them can't tell a good and a bad translation apart. Then, there are the business major types lurking around, tooting their horns, saying "I may not be a translator, but I have a business major. How can you create an agency without having studies in business?". See? The whole industry is rotten to the core, because a large part of it doesn't even know what translation really is.
In fact, this problem is so bad, I am considering dropping reviewing and proofreading from my list of services. In some cases, even if I was paid ten cents per word for reviewing, it would be a slave rate. When you have to rewrite 80% of a translation, the reviewing rate is way below what the job is worth. And let's not even mention the budgeting of time - you think you'll get it over with in a day, and you end up fiddling with it for three days, and miss out on other, more lucrative contracts in the meantime.
Meanwhile, those who post I-love-you questions thrive, even though most of them are paid not even a third of the rates I charge. And they will keep thriving - unless we do something about it here.
[Edited at 2008-12-10 16:24 GMT]
| | | | TranslatorB (X)
English to Croatian
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
See? The whole industry is rotten to the core, because a large part of it doesn't even know what translation really is.
Meanwhile, those who post I-love-you questions thrive, even though most of them are paid not even a third of the rates I charge. And they will keep thriving - unless we do something about it here.
[Edited at 2008-12-10 16:10 GMT]
I am with you, Viktoria.
I strongly believe that translations should be handled by linguists, and not mechanical engineers, economists, businessmen etc..
I have spent some time thinking about these issues trying to decide what is more important : subject-matter knowledge or actual linguistic competence ( by this I mean academic knowledge in the language/ translation theory ). Surely, an ideal translator would have two degrees ( a linguistic and a degree in the field he or she is translating ), however, they are extremely rare ( with both degrees ).
My vote goes to the linguistic competence, because it is what ultimately shapes a translation into a coherent writing piece ( that is a developed linguistic intelligence, because it reveals all meanings, regardless of the subject-matter).
Engineers may have a better technical knowledge, but their descriptive writing skills are sometimes at the 5th grade level, exactely. I do not want to sound like I am underestimating their profession, I just want to say that I can't view them as pro translators, sorry.
[Edited at 2008-12-10 16:51 GMT]
| | | | | Quality, experience, reasonable rates vs Low rates and poor quality | Dec 10, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
If I had a dollar for each translator whose work I reviewed who can't write better than a fifth-grader, I'd be rich. And people do keep giving them work. You want to know why? Because real translators are so few and far between that they have to work with incompetent people - there are simply not enough competent people to handle the work. Let's not forget that the market is full of agencies who were founded by such mediocre translators. So, many of them can't tell a good and a bad translation apart. Then, there are the business major types lurking around, tooting their horns, saying "I may not be a translator, but I have a business major. How can you create an agency without having studies in business?". See? The whole industry is rotten to the core, because a large part of it doesn't even know what translation really is.
In fact, this problem is so bad, I am considering dropping reviewing and proofreading from my list of services. In some cases, even if I was paid ten cents per word for reviewing, it would be a slave rate. When you have to rewrite 80% of a translation, the reviewing rate is way below what the job is worth. And let's not even mention the budgeting of time - you think you'll get it over with in a day, and you end up fiddling with it for three days, and miss out on other, more lucrative contracts in the meantime.
Meanwhile, those who post I-love-you questions thrive, even though most of them are paid not even a third of the rates I charge. And they will keep thriving - unless we do something about it here.
[Edited at 2008-12-10 16:24 GMT]
I simply couldn't agree more with Viktoria.
However, it does not make me anxious or furious anymore:
it is simply like these two very different commercial scenarios:
going to buy to the car boot sale, or to the department stores.
Many people go to the first one, due to low prices, in spite of possible *unchecked* quality. Furthermore, they do not expect the greatest service, nor expertise, let alone to be able to go back and get a refund / be able to exchange the item.
Some other people go to the department stores, knowing if there is a quality issue, or some kind of defect, they will get a replacement, or simply their money back. As well as much greater customer service, attention, information, expertise, and so on.
There are, and there have always been and there will always be, these two totally different market segments, for different kind of customers, with a different service, and different items altogether.
After many years learning and practising foreign languages, and translating, I do consider myself to belong to the second category, therefore I am simply not interested in the first one, as I am not into underselling myself, let alone dumping prices or surviving each time on lower and lower rates. It is simply not my goal: other merchants and business minded persons can do with their time whatever it pleases them.
Now, the issue about the Kudos is similar to the seller at the (local or global) car boot sale asking marketing questions about how to get better items, how to produce better produce, how to sell in a better manner, etc.
These *translation* intruders are obviously making the most of the anonimity and long-distance possibilities offered by the net in general, and of Proz in particular.
As we all know, there are classes and classes.
Funnily enough it is a common feature, but, sorry, I am definitely not interested in hearing from people who translate only after have done a crash course in whatever language, or because they have foreign blood or surnames, merely as they happen to currently live/have lived in a foreign country, or because they are currently unemployed, and have decided to re-invent themselves overnight as translators. Especially when they are not aware of what they are doing as they translate, and it is a simple means of receiving quick cash via the net.
Let alone those *so called* *new* *self-invented* who do not even master their own mother tongue, never read previously and still do not read on a daily basis, do not write either in any language (as they never ever did), do not practice both their native languages and their passive ones, they cannot write without punctuation, syntax, grammar, spelling mistakes... and a very long list I can spare you.
Much as I may sound blunt and demanding, this is nothing compared to what clients and agencies do demand from us...
Alfredo
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TranslatorB (X)
English to Croatian
I have just viewed Kudoz for the Serbian language, and I saw a translator asking for suggestions for an English phrase, and it is nothing overly complex.
However, when I saw what a MAJOR mistake she made in the meaning ( her version of the translation), my blood pressure jumped up and I nearly got a stroke.
I won't visit Kudoz anymore, since I care about my health.
p.s. It wasn't some stylistic mistake in terms of wrong wording or wrong inter-syntactic li... See more I have just viewed Kudoz for the Serbian language, and I saw a translator asking for suggestions for an English phrase, and it is nothing overly complex.
However, when I saw what a MAJOR mistake she made in the meaning ( her version of the translation), my blood pressure jumped up and I nearly got a stroke.
I won't visit Kudoz anymore, since I care about my health.
p.s. It wasn't some stylistic mistake in terms of wrong wording or wrong inter-syntactic linking.. it was a MAJOR semantic mistake, denoting a totally different thing... and it is a medical content.. if they applied her translation, the patient would die, I tell you.
she also thought her rough approximation would do
[Edited at 2008-12-10 19:04 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Alfredo Fernández Martínez wrote:
still do not read on a daily basis, do not write either in any language (as they never ever did), do not practice both their native languages and their passive ones, they cannot write without punctuation, syntax, grammar, spelling mistakes...
Yes, Alfredo; a good translator is firstly and foremostly a good writer. Simply knowing what a word means in another language is about 1% of the translator's task; the remaining 90% consists of writing the translation well.
This requires mastery of many idioms; the translator should have an excellent understanding of literary styles, from the style of a technical manual to the style of a 16th. century poem.
| | | | Paul Cohen 
Greenland
Local time: 14:01
German to English
+ ...
| Should we be irked? Yes. | Dec 10, 2008 |
First of all, I totally agree with Viktoria's comments on bad translators. Yes, editing can quickly turn into a poorly-paid nightmare. I have great respect for people who proofread translations on a regular basis. It's often a tough, thankless job. And it sounds like Viktoria has done her tour of duty in the trenches!
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
(Bad translators) who post I-love-you questions thrive, even though most of them are paid not even a third of the rates I charge. And they will keep thriving - unless we do something about it here.
Yes, let's do something about it here!
Like... er... what?
The KudoZ quandary is a tough nut to crack. The total ban on asking hapless Askers obvious questions like "Wouldn't you rather let a qualified translator handle this job?" means that participants will continue to walk on eggs there -- or risk being chastised by site staff for breaking the rules. We coddle our Askers too much.
KudoZ generates so much traffic that it is unlikely that the site owners will ever allow us to push through rules that will raise the standard of the questions and answers there. It would help if they would at least energetically enforce the current rule on doing research (like consulting a dictionary?) before a question is asked!
But this open and wonderfully friendly help feature called KudoZ comes with a hefty price tag. It invites cheats to use it as a crutch and allows the quality of the site to slide. No wonder some people call them "KiddoZ".
Presumably, the PRO Certification program is an attempt to rectify this situation and save the site's credibility. Ah, this is what we've been waiting for all these years!
Or is it?
Perhaps we could start by addressing Tom's question, asked back towards the beginning of this thread:
Tom in London wrote:
So my question remains open: should I be irked by incompetent translators getting the "P"?
Yes, we should be extremely irked. We already know that the "P" does not designate an elite group of translators, however, it at least implies that these people are special -- otherwise it wouldn't be possible to search for them exclusively (ranked according to KudoZ points, of course). Many outsiders using the directory will naturally select "ProZ.com Certified PRO freelancers only" when doing searches. Who wouldn't? It sounds very impressive!
So my question to you, Tom, and everyone in the "P" group for that matter, is whether the issue of "cheats" has come up on the "P" members' forum and, in your opinion, is this issue being adequately addressed there?
Tom, I know that we're not allowed to talk about the vetting process here, but are you saying that you are dissatisfied with how effectively the topics of quality, integrity and qualifications are being addressed within the group?
It's an eye-opener and very informative that you've raised the thorny issue of incompetent “P” members here, but frankly “we” (i.e., the "P-less" people) are more or less powerless to do anything about the P-charlatans. You, however, are on the front lines. This issue can only be tackled by people within the "P" community. We can merely watch from the sidelines and laugh up our sleeves (or cry?) at some of the KudoZ posted by "P” people (and non-P people!) who are obviously translating way out of their depth (in the wrong language combination, for example).
[Edited at 2008-12-10 23:29 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER | My new concern | Dec 10, 2008 |
Paul
I've been wondering for a long time why one particular person systematically agrees with every suggestion I ever make in Kudoz. Now I'm beginning to understand why.
[Edited at 2008-12-10 23:47 GMT]
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Robin Salmon (X)
Australia
Local time: 01:01
German to English
+ ...
| This took my breath away,too | Dec 11, 2008 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Could it be that some people just put forward questions so that a friend (or their own alias) can grasp some points? That would explain why the answer is already given when the Kudoz-mail is going out. Teamwork.
The Kudoz procedure is so time absorbing that it makes no sense to put in questions just because you are too lazy to open a dictionary. Must be other reasons.
Cheers
Heinrich
That reminds me of an experience I had, when I was even more naïve than I am now. I used to do translations for another ProZ member. When I posted questions from them, he would answer them himself and get the points!
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Paul Cohen wrote:
So my question to you, Tom, and everyone in the "P" group for that matter, is whether the issue of "cheats" has come up on the "P" members' forum and, in your opinion, [b] is this issue being adequately addressed there?
Paul - no, and no.
Since I paid for membership and started using Proz.com seriously, it has been immensely useful to me at the level of hosting my information and enabling prospects to contact me. Using it that way I've built up my own network and am still working on it
But I've also quickly found that there are unscrupulous people who are able to manipulate all of its mechanisms: Kudoz, WWA, BlueBoard, the "P" thing, all of them, and presumably anything else Proz.com comes up with in its laudable attempts to weed out the bad people.
The whole thing irks me because those bad people are getting in my way. I don't like that because it's affecting my business, and I'd like Proz.com to consider taking a different approach to dealing with it.
Think of Proz.com as a night club. Anyone who pays can get in. There are guys on the door, but there are always sneaky people who can get past them.
My fondness for film noir is showing so I'll stop
[Edited at 2008-12-11 00:37 GMT]
| | | | | [off topic] Unfortunately I have to agree | Dec 11, 2008 |
Tom in London wrote: Paul Cohen wrote:
So my question to you, Tom, and everyone in the "P" group for that matter, is whether the issue of "cheats" has come up on the "P" members' forum and, in your opinion, [b] is this issue being adequately addressed there? Paul - no, and no.
That is also how I read the situation. I think it's inevitable, actually - how can you address the issue of undeserving P-tagged members when some of them are likely to be participating in the discussion? I hesitate to call them "cheats" - I'm sure we all believe we deserve to be there. And in fact the nature of the system means that everyone in there has been judged worthy by a number of their peers - so clearly my, or Tom's, or anyone else's opinion of their (or indeed our!) UNworthiness must be subjective, however firmly we believe it (and however we are able to justify it).
I don't see a solution, unfortunately. There are a number of translators with the P-tag whom I feel should have been excluded semi-automatically for a very specific reason, but this reason is itself subjective and would be unjustified under certain circumstances... and it isn't one of the criteria used to judge professionalism. And so I have to grit my teeth and hope against hope that the phenomenon remains limited, even though I fear that it can only get worse as more and more translators are accepted in the programme.
[Edited at 2008-12-11 08:01 GMT]
| | | | avsie (X)
Local time: 17:01
English to French
+ ...
| Same experience | Dec 11, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Here's a little conversation I had with a client of mine whom I have been working with for over three years:
Me: I just took a quick look at this translator's work, and if I were you, I would ask him to clean up his mess before handing it to someone to review. The translation is not usable.
Client: I've been working with this translator for years, he is great.
Me: Well, I don't see what is great about his work. He omits parts of the source segment and adds things that weren't in the source segment, doesn't use the preferred terminology, clearly doesn't proofread anything seeing all the spelling and grammar errors.
Me: Why don't you just review his work? Don't be so zealous.
In fact, this problem is so bad, I am considering dropping reviewing and proofreading from my list of services. In some cases, even if I was paid ten cents per word for reviewing, it would be a slave rate. When you have to rewrite 80% of a translation, the reviewing rate is way below what the job is worth. And let's not even mention the budgeting of time - you think you'll get it over with in a day, and you end up fiddling with it for three days, and miss out on other, more lucrative contracts in the meantime. [/quote]
I've had the same experience as you numerous times, Viktoria. And time and time again, the agency tells me that they have a hard time believing me, because they "never received complaints about the work of this translator before" And dont even get me started on editors who are making a butchery of your work with their total incompetence in the subject matter and translation as a whole. I've had one of my translations edited by someone who "corrected" complete sentences using machine translation output, word for word. Thank goodness it was the policy of the agency to let the translator have the final word on the translation after editing, I was able to avoid a huge mess!!
But that's on a totally different topic... of maybe not?
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hazmatgerman (X)
Local time: 17:01
English to German
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Could it be that some people just put forward questions so that a friend (or their own alias) can grasp some points? That would explain why the answer is already given when the Kudoz-mail is going out. Teamwork.
The Kudoz procedure is so time absorbing that it makes no sense to put in questions just because you are too lazy to open a dictionary. Must be other reasons.
Cheers
Heinrich
Dear Mr. Pesch,
that possibility had not occured to me but now I'm wiser. Thank you very much indeed for this illumination.
[Bearbeitet am 2008-12-11 09:27 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER | More charlatans | Dec 11, 2008 |
After an interval of about 3 hours away from my computer, I check the new Kudoz questions and find a series of 4 or 5 really simple terms that anyone should be able to translate, all coming from the same person, and a couple of other really simple questions from another person, also falling within the normal competency of anyone who claims to be able to translate into English.
I check the profiles of these two individuals and see that they claim to be proficient in various to/from ... See more After an interval of about 3 hours away from my computer, I check the new Kudoz questions and find a series of 4 or 5 really simple terms that anyone should be able to translate, all coming from the same person, and a couple of other really simple questions from another person, also falling within the normal competency of anyone who claims to be able to translate into English.
I check the profiles of these two individuals and see that they claim to be proficient in various to/from language pairs, including into English from other languages, but it is clear to me that they lack even basic proficiency and have very little experience.
Meanwhile I'm involved in a different discussion with someone else, as to why the rates in my language pair are so low.
They are low because these charlatans are delivering bad translations at a low price.
Their low rates are dragging down the general level of payment in this language pair. That's a very serious problem.
(the following note added about 10 minutes later)
Incredible. One of these people has just asked for the English translation of the Italian word "tra"(between). I can't believe this. These people should be denounced.
Somewhere, somehow, if not on Proz.com then somewhere else, we should have a "name and shame" place for people like this.
[Edited at 2008-12-11 14:39 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Tom in London wrote:
Incredible. One of these people has just asked for the English translation of the Italian word "tra"(between). I can't believe this. These people should be denounced.
Somewhere, somehow, if not on Proz.com then somewhere else, we should have a "name and shame" place for people like this.
Didn't take me a minute to find it
Note too that someone has leapt to their defence. THAT is what I also find incredible (I expect you'll get your knuckles rapped if you get reported, BTW).
I agree with you (oh yes!).
Even if the word isn't ultimately translated as "between" in this instance, surely the person (Asker) can be expected, as a translator, to have a decent enough grasp of Italian / English to see that "between" is merely the departure point (dictionary definition, if you like) for the relationship being expressed, and then to pick the most appropriate preposition (probably, but not necessarily) from the full range available in English to express the relationship being expressed in Italian [and breathe....].
I know we all gotta learn sometime and there are gaps in everyone's knowledge and experience. If this was the only doubt that this particular individual had ever expressed, or if it were only one of a handful of gaps... and if it were counterbalanced by some demonstration of expertise and/or ability to help others in return, then OK. But sometimes this is not the case...
[Edited at 2008-12-11 16:21 GMT]
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