sous Cour de cassation

English translation: Casenote/Case note on

09:38 Feb 11, 2022

French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)

French term or phrase: sous Cour de cassation

Pleadings relating to arbitration award in a dispute re a mining concession

"Pièce CL-6, AAA, Commentaire sous Cour de cassation 21 mai 2019, BBB c. CCC, DDD, pp. 4 et 6."

AAA is a professor of law, BBB and CCC are opposing parties in a cited dispute, DDD is the reference of the case.

There are tens of references like this, all using this expression, in footnotes in this text.

Generally I've just put "Commentary under/in the Court of Cassation"... but I'm just wondering whether this noteworthy use of sous should be put some other way. If you search on "sous cour de cassation" (with quotes) you'll find that this expression gets some 11,000 ghits.

In terms of meaning, I wonder what it might mean: does it in fact mean, in all cases, a commentary on (specifically) a judgment of the court? If so, maybe this is what the English should say... "under the Court of Cassation" wouldn't really be adequate if so.

Mpoma KudoZ activity Questions: 1027 (3 open) (91 closed without grading) Answers: 386 United Kingdom
Local time: 11:13

English translation:Casenote/Case note on

Explanation:
'sous' needs to be read in conjunction with 'commentaire'. The reference is to a note (generally published beneath the text of the judgment, hence 'sous') which explains, elucidates, criticizes ... a particular case/the decision handed down in the case.
May be one word (casenote) or two words (case note). The former seems more typical of US and the latter UK usage.

Selected response from:

Hamilton (X)
France
Local time: 12:13

Grading comment

Yes, persuaded. I went with "case note on CoC ruling..." in the end. I still think sous might mean "with reference to" or something in the mind of the drafter... It's a bit of a funny preposition to use here.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

4 +3

Casenote/Case note on

Hamilton (X)

4 +1

under / on Xyz ruling by the Court of Cassation

Conor McAuley

leave it in French

philgoddard

4 -1

under Appeal

Andrew Bramhall

3 -1

Commentary vide infra Cour de cassation (see Commentary under Surpreme Court of Appeal)

Adrian MM.

Summary of reference entries provided

José Patrício

Discussion entries: 5

Conor McAuley

France

15:58 Feb 14, 2022

https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/rubrique/7018...

"REMARQUE
Étymologiquement, rubrique signifie « titre en rouge » : les scribes médiévaux écrivaient en rouge les titres des différentes parties des ouvrages qu'ils copiaient. En vertu de l'étymologie, sous la rubrique (= ***sous le titre***) a longtemps été considéré comme plus correct que dans la rubrique ou à la rubrique. Le sens du mot s'étant étendu depuis longtemps à « catégorie d'articles sur un sujet déterminé, dans un journal ou un livre » (on dit par exemple : il tient la rubrique hippique, la rubrique boursière dans tel quotidien), ce point de vue n'a plus guère de justification."

Conor McAuley

France

15:25 Feb 14, 2022

"Sous" very simply means "under the title of". If you stare at any piece of text for too long, it starts to get complicated, which is (again) what happened here.

There is absolutely nothing dangerous lurking behind the word "sous", hahaha!

Hamilton (X)

France

Note

13:22 Feb 12, 2022

OED defines case note as "a summary and analysis of the facts of a particular case, especially to illustrate or debate some aspect of law". Cf. "annotation", "note", "law note". These terms refer in different ways to writings analysing cases and statutes. Interestingly, the term "note" is sometimes used in French ("note sous ..."), instead of "commentaire". So if you dislike "case note", why not "note" in English, too, followed by either "on" or "under"?

Mpoma

United Kingdom

ASKER

Re "on" / "I don't see what the problem was"

10:29 Feb 12, 2022

@AllegroT. Concerning "on": so why in that case does the French use sous? It would have been very obvious and easy to use "commentaire sur", it seems to me.

Secondly, call it an oversight on my part if you will, but it actually hadn't occurred to me to just slip in a "jugement" (just before "Cour") which isn't actually there, on the basis that it is implicit.

"Case note" is interesting. I found this quote "Case notes provide a record of the client’s interaction with your service, and in writing them it is important that practitioners are always mindful that they may be read by others".

Whereas this is a commentaire by a legal authority whose previous remarks on a different case have been drafted in to provide support for (in this case) the plaintiff in an appeal action, and the conclusions the expert reaches are obviously crucial for the success of the appeal. I'm not saying "case note" doesn't cover this: I don't know. I have a slight suspicion, no more, that case notes are usually written by law professionals who have been directly involved in a case. Whereas these commentaires are invariably by academics.

Mpoma

United Kingdom

ASKER

By the way

09:44 Feb 11, 2022

... for anyone who has never done these sorts of things, these observations by the various learned authorities do indeed always seem to be commentaries on judgments, e.g. things like this:

"Il était donc difficile, sans tourner le dos ostensiblement à la volonté des rédacteurs du texte, de prétendre déduire du fait que la liste des actifs protégés est regroupée sous le vocable « investissement » que certains éléments de la liste, spécialement les droits conférés par contrat, doivent être compris comme étant en réalité exclus en raison de leur nature.
Comme le relève la Cour de cassation, une telle interprétation ajoute au traité une condition qu’il ne contient pas, ce qui ne peut pas être une manière fidèle de l’interpréter."

Answers

2 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

under Appeal

Explanation:
Under appeal at the appeal court; (the 'court of cassation' is not a concept in the anglophone world)
The nearest equivalent under our jurisdictions is 'Court of Appeal', though there is a difference, namely that appeal courts examine the facts as well as points of law, whereas cassations only re-examine legal aspects of cases before them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_cassation

Andrew Bramhall
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:13
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 40

2 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +3

Commentaire sous

Casenote/Case note on

Hamilton (X)
France
Local time: 12:13
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 20

Grading comment

Yes, persuaded. I went with "case note on CoC ruling..." in the end. I still think <i>sous</i> might mean "with reference to" or something in the mind of the drafter... It's a bit of a funny preposition to use here.

Notes to answerer

Asker: So, "case note on ..."? Are you suggesting "case note on the Court of Cassation"? The problem is that these are notes on judgments by it.

2 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

under / on Xyz ruling by the Court of Cassation

Explanation:

If you want to stay literal or think the French "shorthand" is ok, then use "under", if not, use "on" and insert "ruling".
My personal preference is the latter, in order to be as clear as possible for your reader or readers.

If you add Dalloz juridique to your internet search, it all becomes clearer:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dalloz juridique "sous cou...

This man writes commentary for Dalloz:

http://www.cedricmanara.com/dalloz

For example:

"Twitter : signalement de contenus illicites (note ***sous*** CA Paris, 12 juin 2013, UEJF c/ Twitter Inc.), Dalloz Actualités, 19 juin 2013"

The Court of Cassation publishes commentaries on its decisions itself, see, for example, the second-last item on page 5 in the document linked to below:

"C. Berlaud, « L’exposition à l’amiante : mise en danger de la vie des travailleurs et du public ;
***Note sous*** Cour de cassation, Chambre criminelle, 19 avril 2017, pourvoi numéro 16-80.695 »,
La Gazette du Palais, 2017, n° 17, pp. 41 – 42"

https://www.courdecassation.fr/files/files/Publications/Pano...

Such commentary is variously called "case analysis", "case commentary", "legal commentary", "case comments", etc. (see https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=legal commentary case law&... but in the context "commentary on its own is safe enough.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-02-11 13:12:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note to Mpoma: only the word "ruling" and a bit of "filler" text ("on") needs to be added.

Which gives us:

"Pièce CL-6, AAA, Commentaire sous Cour de cassation 21 mai 2019, BBB c. CCC, DDD, pp. 4 et 6."

=>

"Exhibit CL-6, AAA, Commentary on the Court of Cassation ruling dated 21 May 2019, BBB v. CCC, pages 4 and 6."

No need for any legalese when only two simple words need to be added to make the text flow much better (and fully make sense).

Also, my research indicates that no such system is used in the Anglosphere -- see my last link above, and my link here, re the UK Supreme Court: https://www.supremecourt.uk/decided-cases/

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2022-02-11 13:14:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Correction ("DDD" missing):

"Exhibit CL-6, AAA, Commentary on the Court of Cassation ruling dated 21 May 2019, BBB v. CCC, DDD, pages 4 and 6."

Conor McAuley
France
Local time: 12:13
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 210

Notes to answerer

Asker: Yes, the question was motivated by the thought that the French is indeed too abbreviated. But I thought it possible that someone (like Adrian MM or AllegroT) might rustle up some snappy English legalese equivalent which fits the bill perfectly. Not so far.

5 hrs confidence:

leave it in French

Explanation:
This is a reference to a journal article being cited in support of legal argument, and you should not translate it. That way, readers can look it up if they want to.
Here's an example:
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-03245428

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Note added at 5 hrs (2022-02-11 15:25:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The only thing you should translate in your sentence is "pièce".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2022-02-11 15:30:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

...and possibly "et".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2022-02-11 15:51:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I discovered this to my cost years ago when a customer told me off for translating the footnotes in a similar document to yours. The upside is that you get paid for words that you don't translate.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2022-02-11 17:56:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

From the Bluebook legal citation guide on the website of Harvard's law library:

If you are referring to a non-English source in its original language, you need to cite the original-language version (see footnote #17 in the example below).
If you are referring to a source that was translated into English, you need to cite the translated version (see footnote #18 in the example below).
http://guides.library.harvard.edu/bluebook-guide

philgoddard
United States
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 286

13 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

Commentaire sous Cour de cassation Commentary vide infra Cour de cassation (see Commentary under Surpreme Court of Appeal)

Explanation:
> the question could have been prefaced with the Commentaire.

I thought vide infra - or just infra, not only to a text directly underneath - was a law reporting convention in many lingos, but cut to howls and squeals of protest.

Not strictly a citation, but I stand corrected by those better versed in wading through masses of footnotes to textbooks and the law reports.

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Note added at 13 hrs (2022-02-11 23:20:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Commentary under *Supreme* Court, rather than under Chicken Surprise.

Example sentence(s):

Vide infra definition, see below (used especially to refer a reader to parts of a text).

Reference: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/blu...

Adrian MM.
Austria
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 359

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

disagree

Andrew Bramhall: And a phrase that may be understood by persons other than the Master of the Rolls post 1850? (i.e, other than Lord Hailsham's great-great-great grandfather?//Have never worked for such an agency, ever?

9 hrs

-> The English follows. Otherwise, pls. read Conor McAuley's "under the title of" discussion entry *carefully* - & try to remember the stylistic rules of a well-known Aldwych Central London notarial translation & court interpreting agency that dumped you..

neutral

philgoddard: Anno domini 2022 est. Hodie linguam anglicam loquimur.

20 hrs

-> The English translation follows. Otherwise, pls. read Conor McAuley's "under the title of" discussion entry carefully.

neutral

AllegroTrans: Saltem quidam ex nobis

1 day 23 hrs

-> The English translation follows. Otherwise, pls. read Conor McAuley's "under the title of" discussion entry carefully.

Reference comments

24 mins peer agreement (net): -1

Reference

Reference information:
under the oversight of the Court of Cassation - sous le contrôle de la Cour de cassation - https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/search?source=auto&q...

José Patrício
Portugal
Native speaker of:

Portuguese
PRO pts in category: 1

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English translation: Casenote/Case note on

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