| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Minimum recommended rates for translators to be referenced on ProZ.com Thread poster: Jared Tabor
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Simone Linke 
Germany
Local time: 23:04
Member (2009)
English to German
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| explanation again | Sep 12, 2010 |
Claudio LR wrote:
I think it's misleading to try to convert a line (=character) rate into a word rate by passing through an hourly rate. There is no perfect conversion as it depends on languages (some languages, such as German, have longer words than others). The clients I work with generally convert considering a line (55 or 60 character) as made of around 8.5 words. According to the calculations I sometimes make that is quite close to reality. 1.25 EUR would therefore be between 0.14 and 0.15 EUR.
Maybe my original post was a bit misleading in the wording:
The BDÜ calculates an hourly rate and then they use this rate to come up with a price per line based on 30 lines an hour.
Since the preferred way to express rates at Proz seems to be per word, I took the hourly rate and transformed it into a rate per word with the basis of 450 words per hour as already mentioned by another poster.
Remember, we're talking about minimum rates here, not about rates for scientific or legal translations or similar.
That's why I think 210 words per hour would give a misleading impression to those seeking guidance.
But as I said, opinions on this may vary and maybe we should clarify first how many words to use as the basis for these minimum rates.
| | | | | not the BDÜ's reccomendation | Sep 13, 2010 |
@ Simone: By shifting from 30 "Normzeilen" (1650 characters with spaces) to 450 words per hour you are giving your personal recommendation that has nothing to do with the model mentioned by the BDÜ.
Theoretically, there is some language that has an average word length of 2.66 letters (3.66 with the space): Except for translations from German into this language, you (not the BDÜ!) arrive at a minimum price of 0,08 EUR/word.
Your other points are valid; the recommendations of... See more @ Simone: By shifting from 30 "Normzeilen" (1650 characters with spaces) to 450 words per hour you are giving your personal recommendation that has nothing to do with the model mentioned by the BDÜ.
Theoretically, there is some language that has an average word length of 2.66 letters (3.66 with the space): Except for translations from German into this language, you (not the BDÜ!) arrive at a minimum price of 0,08 EUR/word.
Your other points are valid; the recommendations of the BDÜ do not correspond to the business models of most ProZ members.
However, it is still important to represent the BDÜ's position accurately: Something like Matthias' 0,16 EUR per German word for translations from German into English. The price per English word for the direction English>German would be somewhat lower, because the average length of an English word is shorter.
It is important to remember that the number of "Normzeilen" is based on the target and not the source text. The position that the number of characters is a more accurate way of determining text-length (as a factor in the amount of time involved in a translation) than the number of words is also important to note.
Sincerely,
Michael ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 23:04
English to German
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| BDÜ does not issue price recommendations | Sep 13, 2010 |
Hi Michael,
A correction if I may.
However, it is still important to represent the BDÜ's position accurately: Something like Matthias' 0,16 EUR per German word for translations from German into English. The price per English word for the direction English>German would be somewhat lower, because the average length of an English word is shorter.
I doubt whether you would find any "position" by the BDÜ regarding any specific price recommendations.
The association cannot issue any recommendations, including for legal reasons, but has published a survey of prices charged by translators and interpreters in Germany (the 'Honorarspiegel', which is available from BDÜ). I suspect the price level you quoted may have been taken from that survey.
I find the survey a useful tool (an update is currently being compiled), but it is important to note that the data shown in there does not represent any recommendation by the BDÜ.
Best regards,
Ralf
www.bw.bdue.de
| | | | Simone Linke
Germany
Local time: 23:04
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Just to make it clear yet again since this seems to cause more confusion than necessary:
The BDÜ *does* calculate an hourly minimum of €37.30.
The BDÜ *does not* use 450 words as the basis for their subsequent calculations.
Obviously, since the BDÜ members are already in the advanced category (I would assume), their rates and hourly output are different. Hence, I don't think we should take 210 words as the basis for *general* minimum rates to be given in a Wi... See more Just to make it clear yet again since this seems to cause more confusion than necessary:
The BDÜ *does* calculate an hourly minimum of €37.30.
The BDÜ *does not* use 450 words as the basis for their subsequent calculations.
Obviously, since the BDÜ members are already in the advanced category (I would assume), their rates and hourly output are different. Hence, I don't think we should take 210 words as the basis for *general* minimum rates to be given in a Wiki.
On the other hand though.. maybe we should.. that would give me more free time.
Or maybe, since I've been asking the same question again and again now, if no one is willing to discuss the average output per hour, whoever is going to edit the Wiki should simply add a paragraph on the fact that 210 words per hour are probably not very representative. Or maybe they are? ▲ Collapse
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Cristiana Coblis
Romania
Local time: 00:04
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
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| Rate recommendations are not legal in the EU | Sep 13, 2010 |
However, many translators associations publish rate surveys that are usually available on their website or exclusively to their members.
As far as the Romanian Translators Associations is concerned, we do not publish rate recommendations because we have consulted a consumer protection lawyer and he made it very clear that this would be illegal. As in many other states, the Ministry of Justice has established fixed per page/hour rates for certified translation purchased by certain st... See more However, many translators associations publish rate surveys that are usually available on their website or exclusively to their members.
As far as the Romanian Translators Associations is concerned, we do not publish rate recommendations because we have consulted a consumer protection lawyer and he made it very clear that this would be illegal. As in many other states, the Ministry of Justice has established fixed per page/hour rates for certified translation purchased by certain state institutions. However, these do not apply on the free market and less so on the international market. Normally rates are freely negotiated between translator and client.
At European level, the European Regional Center of the International Federation of Translators (FIT Europe) has published recently a Survey Report on Rates and Working Conditions for Translators in Europe. The survey was carried out in all European countries and is quite comprehensive. However, it is only available to members of FIT associations: http://www.fit-europe.org/membersarea.html Translators who are members of a European FIT association may contact their association and inquire about access to this report.
I believe it is obvious that translators belonging to a professional organization are well informed about rates through surveys carried out by their associations or other associations, FIT Europe etc. Such information is easily available to those who seek it.
Finally, on a personal note, I must say I quite agree with some of my colleagues. There is no quick fix to being inexperienced, unskilled (translation or business wise) or unadapted to market conditions. There is a learning curve and we all start somewhere, we all "pay our dues" in this business. In my opinion (apologies if this may sound cruel), minimum rates are only interesting to those who do not have (yet) the necessary abilities to convince clients to hire their services at reasonable, above minimum, rates.
Many of us have learned a lot (I have 24 years of formal training under my belt and many years of translation specific training at that), many of us have invested countless hours in our profession to reach a high level of expertise and these are not minimum rate services. IMHO, translation is not a minimum rate service. Sure, there is a market for such minimum rate services, but translators should ask themselves if this is what they want. Translators who aim at earning minimum rates will not thrive on the free market because their goal is incorrect, they should aim higher and ask themselves why their services are not competitive (and by that I mean why they are perceived as not offering enough for the rates they quote). rates are not problematic if you can back them up. This is not something that ProZ.com can fix for its users, but something that each translator should work on continuously by training, gaining experience and trying different strategies and approaches.
[Editat la 2010-09-13 15:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks everyone for the information so far, keep it coming | Sep 14, 2010 |
Hello all,
Thanks for the response and for all of the information so far! If others have similar information it will be welcome.
I will be adding this information where I can to the wiki as a starting point.
It looks like in some cases extra information needs to be added as well (the considerations brought up with the BDÜ, for example). If anyone would like to take a shot at summarizing this, or adding any other info, the countries which currently have an... See more Hello all,
Thanks for the response and for all of the information so far! If others have similar information it will be welcome.
I will be adding this information where I can to the wiki as a starting point.
It looks like in some cases extra information needs to be added as well (the considerations brought up with the BDÜ, for example). If anyone would like to take a shot at summarizing this, or adding any other info, the countries which currently have an article in the wiki are here:
http://wiki.proz.com/wiki/index.php/Category:Countries
The article under construction for Germany in particular is at http://wiki.proz.com/wiki/index.php/Translation_in_Germany
If you don't see your country represented here and need help starting the page for it, give me a shout and I'll be happy to help.
Cristiana, thanks also for the information, and you make some good points. I'd like to highlight
This is not something that ProZ.com can fix for its users, but something that each translator should work on continuously by training, gaining experience and trying different strategies and approaches.
You're right that ProZ.com as a site cannot fix this for those who use it. It does offer a means for translators to work towards doing so, however. The wiki is there so that another form of collaboration can occur; isn't it in everyone's benefit for those who have gained that experience and have information on which strategies and approaches work (and which do not) to share it?
Jared ▲ Collapse
| | | | | | Adam Neudold
Hungary
Local time: 23:04
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Radovan Pletka wrote:
Uneducated clients want the translation for free or for peanuts. They need to be educated and cheap translators are doing good job educating those clients.
It seems to me this is some kind of a cornerstone in your argument, but this is simply not true. Many uneducated clients never realize they're getting crap for their money. (But of course setting minimum rates won't put things right either.)
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| no recommendation, words per hour, income per hour | Sep 14, 2010 |
@ Ralf
I tried to keep my wording as wishy-washy as possible and carefully avoided the word "recommend". As you and Christiana pointed out, the BDÜ does not recommend anything, because it would be against the law to do so.
The 1,25/Normzeile and the definition of Normzeile are from the "Justizvergütungs- und -entschädigungsgesetz – JVEG", which the BDÜ (for example, in the rates survey from 2008: "Einen gewissen Anhaltspunkt für die Vergütung [...] bietet das JVEG") do... See more @ Ralf
I tried to keep my wording as wishy-washy as possible and carefully avoided the word "recommend". As you and Christiana pointed out, the BDÜ does not recommend anything, because it would be against the law to do so.
The 1,25/Normzeile and the definition of Normzeile are from the "Justizvergütungs- und -entschädigungsgesetz – JVEG", which the BDÜ (for example, in the rates survey from 2008: "Einen gewissen Anhaltspunkt für die Vergütung [...] bietet das JVEG") does sometimes mention as a place to start when trying to decide on rates.
The middle rates from the survey published in 2008 range from significantly below to somewhat above 1,25 EUR/Normzeile, depending on the type of client and the language pairs.
@ Simone
Thank you for sticking to this discussion despite your question being ignored and your posts getting criticized.
Regarding words per hour: I seriously doubt that I ever get far above ca. 250 German words/hour (2000 characters with spaces) and that only in the case of rush press releases involving few or no questions from the client. In the case of book and other official publications with more substantial editing phases before and after submission to the client as well as proof-reading and more discussion generally, I do not even get up to the BDÜ's 1650 characters. All told, these projects and their acquisition also mostly involve more unpaid time than their share of the 50% of paid time allowed for by most business plans.
I accept that I am a slow translator working in a slow area of translation, but I also think that most translators believe that they are faster than they really are.
The problem with talking about minimum rates per word is that it truly requires comparing apples with oranges. The real questions are the gross income per hour, the amount of investments, and what is subjectively and objectively an acceptable income for one's particular case.
Sincerely,
Michael ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 23:04
Italian to English
In memoriam | By and large, Radovan is right, Adam | Sep 14, 2010 |
Adam Neudold wrote:
It seems to me this is some kind of a cornerstone in your argument, but this is simply not true. Many uneducated clients never realize they're getting crap for their money.
I'm with Radovan on this, and indeed on the rest of his comments.
Uneducated clients who remain that way probably aren't actually using their translations for anything (there is a market for such "vanity translations", of course), but when the complaints start coming in, the market tends to give even the least illuminated a crash course in what constitutes value for money.
It's then up to the customer to decide whether a quality translation is worth the extra cash. Typically, clients who switch to a cheaper source of translations tend to return when the new copy begins to impact negatively on their public image and/or sales.
We have to remember that it is possible to get a translation of sorts for nothing these days. If we want to charge customers for something they could get for free elsewhere (Google, Babelfish etc), we need to have a clear idea of the monetary value of good translations. This will vary from cases to case, and customers may not know themselves until they have seen the damage bad ones can do.
| | | | Simone Linke
Germany
Local time: 23:04
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| @ Michael + Giles | Sep 14, 2010 |
Thanks, Michael, for giving some insight into your hourly output. I think that really shows why it's important to either find an average output per hour or to stop using rate per word as the basis for discussion.
I'm a statistics nerd, so I keep track of all my rates and numbers, per hour, per month, you name it..
That's why I know (and I can only speak for myself here) that in certain "easy" fields, you can eas... See more Thanks, Michael, for giving some insight into your hourly output. I think that really shows why it's important to either find an average output per hour or to stop using rate per word as the basis for discussion.
I'm a statistics nerd, so I keep track of all my rates and numbers, per hour, per month, you name it..
That's why I know (and I can only speak for myself here) that in certain "easy" fields, you can easily do 450 words per hour. For example, I have a client for whom I translate only manuals - very simple stuff like CD players, digital cameras, whatever. And even with two rounds of proof-reading (including some post-Trados formatting), my average output for these kinds of jobs is between 500-900 words per hour.
But again, that's the simple stuff and doesn't compare to, for example, some Terms & Conditions I do every now and then. For those, my hourly output is more like 300 words.
Since we're talking about a guideline for absolute minimum rates here though, I would find it unfair to use the rates for highly time-consuming legal translations as the basis. I would love to use those rates for my simple manual translations though..
So, whenever the term "minimum rate" is used, it should be made extra-super-absolutely clear that this is the rate people consider the absolute minimum they would charge for simple projects. It's not to be confused with their "standard rate" or "average rate" or any "specialist rate".
Maybe that's why so many people seem to get scared because they are afraid that their high-quality legal/fiction/marketing/.... translations will be devalued. That's of course not what is intended here.
Personally, I'd also prefer talking about hourly rates. That's also why the whole confusion with the BDÜ rates started, since I automatically took their hourly minimum and just went from there but didn't consider that some people may not be used to calculating it that way.
Anyway, I'll probably contribute to the Wiki article later tonight, taking all your comments into account of course.. so, if anybody wants to double-check it and keep an eye on me, feel free to do so.
@Giles:
I already commented to Radovan in private because his post showed up late.
Let me give you two examples for "a good client without a clue":
I recently needed to hire someone to do a very simple Gif animation for me. I have basic multimedia/design knowledge myself but I had no clue how much time would go into this animation. When posting the job, I even told the providers explicitely that they don't need to bid low, because I was willing to pay a decent hourly rate.
All the bids that came in were for the posted minimum amount. I chose someone with a decent portfolio and I was happy with the result. But I still don't know if I paid him a decent rate or if he was too afraid to charge more (which would be his mistake, of course). Or maybe he was a student who was offering good work for a low price.
So, next time I have a larger project, should I enforce the low price I paid because I was happy with the result? What if he really was a student? What if he wasn't and his price was really fair? How can I know that the next guy with three times the hourly rate isn't ripping me off?
That leads to example 2: some months ago, I was looking for someone to do my Website. I got in touch with several people, told them in detail what I needed and that I didn't need a super-large CMS solution. I received an offer from a professional Web designer that was three or four times as high as my maximum amount. I rejected it because I couldn't imagine that the work required for my site would justify such a large bid.
I ended up creating my Website myself (luckily I can), and while it has 1 or 2 small glitches, I'm pretty ok with the result - and given the amount of time I (the non-expert) spent on it, the price of the Web Designer really wasn't fair (imho).
So, what do we have? One scenario where I felt I was paying too little and one scenario where I felt ripped-off.
Am I to blame here?
And now imagine a client looking for a translator. A client without any insight into this business. He might think, well, it took me 30 min to write this letter here, why would a translator charge me for three hours to translate it?
Sure, many clients simply *want to* have everything without paying for everything. But what about those who simply don't have a clue?
Can it really hurt to provide some more transparency about the translation business? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 23:04
Italian to English
In memoriam
Simone Linke wrote:
So, what do we have? One scenario where I felt I was paying too little and one scenario where I felt ripped-off.
Am I to blame here?
Only in the sense that you made your purchases with an imperfect knowledge of the market. If you had been buying a washing machine or a computer, you would probably have wanted to know more about your supplier and the product before clinching the deal but there again, in those cases the market is more mature, there are fewer players and information is more easily available.
All the same, this focus on average or minimum rates only serves to reinforce the view that translation is a so-much-per-word commodity and not a service, which is what I strive to provide.
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| rates per hour (gross income) | Sep 16, 2010 |
@ Jared,
(Everyone who is not used to US English, please bear with me, e.g. holidays, daycare center - I think you'll figure it out.)
Should the question maybe be reformulated? The lowest possible rate offered for the fastest possible job or even some kind of 'lowest rate for typical jobs' may not be much help to anyone.
The real issue is what kind of income people are earning and how they are doing it. That means much less reliable results than a survey about mi... See more @ Jared,
(Everyone who is not used to US English, please bear with me, e.g. holidays, daycare center - I think you'll figure it out.)
Should the question maybe be reformulated? The lowest possible rate offered for the fastest possible job or even some kind of 'lowest rate for typical jobs' may not be much help to anyone.
The real issue is what kind of income people are earning and how they are doing it. That means much less reliable results than a survey about minimum rates, but information that might genuinely be useful for beginners, the non-business-minded, and clients.
I work about a thirty-five-hour work week and about 18,5 days per month (= five days per week minus weekends, nine holidays, twenty-five days vacation, and five sick days). My wife is employed by a company, I have a small child, and I live in Germany - these are pretty normal numbers for this situation.
In addition, I count two-thirds of my time at work as unpaid (= training, unpaid research, acquisitions, billing, taxes, etc.). This is a standard rule of thumb to be found in most books on business plans.
As stated above, I would say that the BDÜ estimate of 1650 English characters (about 225 German words) per hour is pretty close to my actual average production.
I have a responsible (indemnity insurance, solid computer, MS Office 2010, Wordfast, up-to-date style guides and dictionaries, specialist lexica, etc.) but pretty lean budget and work from an office in my home: I would say that I might get my expenses just under 2000 EUR per year once I have finished with all of my initial investments. I am also a member of the German Künstlersozialkasse (KSK), which means that half of my social security taxes (just over 35% of gross income for many freelancers) are paid for me as if I were an employee - this is a major factor in terms of net income.
Assuming that I were fully booked (= 2/3 of my work-time) and had gotten my expenses down to 2000 EUR per year, I could earn the equivalent of a regular employee earning 2,500 EUR (gross) per month (30,000 EUR per year) by averaging 0,137 EUR per German word. (If I was translating from English it would be more like 0,118 EUR per English word.)
That is a perfectly reasonable income for Berlin with its excellent public transporation and its highly subventioned daycare, universities, culture, etc.
If I lived in another part of Germany, had an office outside my home, were not in the KSK, worked in a field where higher investments were necessary, or had a less frugal lifestyle, I would not be satisfied with this income. In the USA, for example, it would hardly be enough to raise a family.
That is a lot of personal information, but I think it is perfectly legitimate and it may be of help to some people, so I don't mind.
Sincerely,
Michael ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Don't take a minimum recommended rate as a target rate | Sep 16, 2010 |
Hi Michael,
The considerations you raise are good ones, and it is of course up to each translator to decide what they want out of the business, the economic standing they want, and what their work is worth, and then charge accordingly. Comparing and contrasting your situation with that of other translators in other countries or financial situations may be useful in giving perspective to those decisions.
The purpose of collecting information on the minimum recommended ra... See more Hi Michael,
The considerations you raise are good ones, and it is of course up to each translator to decide what they want out of the business, the economic standing they want, and what their work is worth, and then charge accordingly. Comparing and contrasting your situation with that of other translators in other countries or financial situations may be useful in giving perspective to those decisions.
The purpose of collecting information on the minimum recommended rates for translators is not to resolve those decisions for the translator, though. And these are the minimum recommended rates, meaning, if you are providing quality translations, it might not be a good idea to go below those rates. Referencing this information and collecting it in one place is one way to help keep translators informed about what their options are when it comes time to set a rate for a project. The minimum is a recommended floor, not the ceiling!
Best regards,
Jared ▲ Collapse
| | | | | SFT hourly rate range is very large | Sep 16, 2010 |
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this topic in the forum is very interesting
according to the SFT document p 18 (SFT Enquête Tarifs 2009, salaire horaire), one would ask 40 Eur per hour for highly technical translation in one's field (25 years experience in computer software) , or 15 Eur per hour for a very simple translation.
remark: In France the legal minimum rate for an official job is about 13 Eur per hour even for baby sitting or gardening
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