| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Posting proposed translations in "discussion" rather than submitting Answers Thread poster: Kristina Love
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| Point grabber confessions | Jul 19, 2021 |
I admit to being something of a points grabber earlier on - I joined this site in 2003. People got upset when I called Kudoz a game, but OK, look at it it as exercises. I enjoyed it, and in my language pairs it was a great way to spend a coffee break in intelligent, often witty company! Or an excuse to play with my collection of dictionaries.  I managed to rank near the top for some years, and actually reached the point where ... See more I admit to being something of a points grabber earlier on - I joined this site in 2003. People got upset when I called Kudoz a game, but OK, look at it it as exercises. I enjoyed it, and in my language pairs it was a great way to spend a coffee break in intelligent, often witty company! Or an excuse to play with my collection of dictionaries. I managed to rank near the top for some years, and actually reached the point where it was not entirely an advantage.
I already had more offers of work than I could take on, and being at the top of the list drew in the less serious ones - people who did not go to my profile and see whether I was actually a suitable translator for the job. Not to mention the ones with rates way below the ones my regular clients paid!
Over time, the kinds of questions have changed, and they are often beyond my modest expertise. Either way, I have more or less stopped answering Kudoz questions, although I still keep an eye on them. I am happy to let younger talents take over - I won't be here for ever!
If you have the right answer to a question, give it as an answer. Justify with references if you can, especially in connection with the specific context, but you need not spend more time on it than you have. The asker may then give the points to an answerer with a better explanation, but at least you tried.
You can always add to the discussion later!
As mentioned above, if the answer is only posted in the discussion section, it does not go into the glossary for future use. Although a lot of the value of KudoZ is in the glossary, ALL the answers and discussion entries are useful to expand on the way the term or expression is used. Contributing, even if you do not get points, helps to make you visible, and makes an impression on those who are discriminating enough to look at the whole discussion. So good answers and comments will get you noticed in the right places.
Best of luck!
[Edited at 2021-07-19 11:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Guilty as charged | Jul 19, 2021 |
Like many “more senior” translators here, I have zero interest in points and even less in attracting agencies or other clients looking for a cheap and "cheerful" solution. In fact, in my profile, I have asked that they abstain from contacting me, which doesn’t always stop them!
I have my own clients, all direct, and can command rates that would make your mouth water. Experience, specialisation, word-of-mouth, after sales service, carefully cultivated customer relations, the oc... See more Like many “more senior” translators here, I have zero interest in points and even less in attracting agencies or other clients looking for a cheap and "cheerful" solution. In fact, in my profile, I have asked that they abstain from contacting me, which doesn’t always stop them!
I have my own clients, all direct, and can command rates that would make your mouth water. Experience, specialisation, word-of-mouth, after sales service, carefully cultivated customer relations, the occasional freebie for a regular client when the situation warrants it, all these things are as much part of my stock in trade as the actual basic task of translating. And I would bet good money that those in the same category as myself would say the same.
So, on those rare occasions when I answer questions, it is either because I know the correct (usually technical) answer or because I want to suggest an idea to encourage the original poster to put his or her thinking cap on and find a way of using this idea to convert it into something that fits into the context and is in line with the overall style. My purpose is to help the translator to come up with an apposite solution. It can never be to impose my style, which may not match theirs, but to point them in the right direction.
Like others, I am short on time and when I cannot do the research necessary to quote chapter and verse, I use the "discussion" option. The actual legwork is the asker’s job anyway. Better a useful piece of information in the “wrong” box than a full but incorrect suggestion in the "right" place.
And useful translations can be entered separately into the glossry by those who wish. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kristina Love 
United States
Local time: 07:59
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Not wanting points a sign of status in the mind of those who don't want points | Jul 19, 2021 |
Posting this topic and reading the responses has pretty much resolved any concern I had about people posting only in the discussion area. I'm fine with it, because if people want to help or participate, it's totally at their discretion if they want to submit an answer or just put their answer in the discussion area.
Initially I felt a little deflated like it was spoiling the fun and squashing points opportunities for less experienced translators who need them, but it's truly not t... See more Posting this topic and reading the responses has pretty much resolved any concern I had about people posting only in the discussion area. I'm fine with it, because if people want to help or participate, it's totally at their discretion if they want to submit an answer or just put their answer in the discussion area.
Initially I felt a little deflated like it was spoiling the fun and squashing points opportunities for less experienced translators who need them, but it's truly not that big a deal. I was just curious about what might be some of the reasoning behind the practice. I realize that for many, the points and the contest for points is just irrelevant; as such they have no problem if Answerers use their idea or even take their exact answer (and it is not against the rules to do so). They are kindly trying to help the Asker, socialize with other translators, and enjoyably pass the time.
And, for me, Michael's observation is pretty much confirmed that there are also a few here and there who do this because it's secretly important to them to show everyone that they don't need points, and they don't mind removing a newcomer's chance to exercise their research skills and gain some standing, just to make their status known. Those people are intentionally stealing a little bit of dignity from newcomers because they disdain them; but so be it.
In response I'm just going to do what I can to get points, although never at the risk of promoting an answer that I'm unsure of or letting the points become more important than allowing the Asker to find the most accurate answer possible in whatever quarter. I'm more than happy to let points go by admitting when someone else has provided a better answer when that's the case.
On the other hand, as a pragmatic self-advocate with some self-respect, I'm not going to let veritable "free points" fall by the wayside because of some ridiculous interpersonal awkwardness, real or imagined. If I'm new and I have almost zero points, points are naturally more desirable for me than they are for someone who's established. There's no shame to my game. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Give and take | Jul 19, 2021 |
Kristina Love wrote:
they don't mind removing a newcomer's chance to exercise their research skills and gain some standing, just to make their status known. Those people are intentionally stealing a little bit of dignity from newcomers because they disdain them; but so be it.
That’s a very big leap, and also illogical.
The only way I can remove your chance of points (and even then not necessarily) is to enter an answer. When I put a suggestion in the discussion, you can, if you are brazen enough, steal it. Everyone’s a winner.
Do also bear in mind that non-paying members like me have nothing to gain from points.
Like Christmas, KudoZ is about giving, not taking.
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Kristina Love
United States
Local time: 07:59
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER
If that didn't apply to you, then I wasn't talking about you. I don't know if it does or doesn't; you do. There's no need to feel defensive. You don't need to explain why you don't need points or that I'm free to take the points: all of that has been said already.
If you've read and fully digested all my previous comments on this post, and still want to twit me or subtly imply that I'm being petty, I think it's more because you are just oriented toward doing this and not because of ... See more If that didn't apply to you, then I wasn't talking about you. I don't know if it does or doesn't; you do. There's no need to feel defensive. You don't need to explain why you don't need points or that I'm free to take the points: all of that has been said already.
If you've read and fully digested all my previous comments on this post, and still want to twit me or subtly imply that I'm being petty, I think it's more because you are just oriented toward doing this and not because of anything I actually said.
You may not realize that you have come across as a just slightly brusque/snarky/passive-aggressive a few times and so now I am just going to point that out and hope that it clears up, at least in relation to me. If it doesn't, I'm probably going to take my option to "go blind" if my eyes wander across your comments. Leave the chip on your shoulder at the door and we'll get along fine.
BTW, I've both said and read all that I need to say and read about this particular topic and its thread. Moving on. ▲ Collapse
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You don't need to wage war against both the pros and cons Kudoz in this forum. I think it useless and unproductive, because you are getting on the wrong side of everybody here ready to help you find your way through the merciless world of translators...
Neither it's needless to check, investigate and try to parse all my previous answers on any previous threads as you've just made above in order to face me any contradictory opinion I might have expressed about the KudoZ forum.
... See more You don't need to wage war against both the pros and cons Kudoz in this forum. I think it useless and unproductive, because you are getting on the wrong side of everybody here ready to help you find your way through the merciless world of translators...
Neither it's needless to check, investigate and try to parse all my previous answers on any previous threads as you've just made above in order to face me any contradictory opinion I might have expressed about the KudoZ forum.
My opinions were not contradictory though: It's a fact that outsourcers are indeed more attracted by translators with lots of KudoZ points. But it's also a fact that the vast majority of assignments doesn't come through Kudoz, nor even they come from the Directory. As you may have read before on this thread, it's the case for most of us as well.
Each of us bears in mind that the KudoZ forum exists since the beginning of the ProZ platform and is part of the ProZ.com concept and will stay as it is for the days/months/years to come, with or without you and me and other members here. Take it or leave it!
So please drop your guns and bullets against me and against others whom you are trying to challenge or contradict.
Follow my advice: close your thread and start translating...
No hard feelings.
Best of luck.
[Modifié le 2021-07-19 20:44 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 13:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| @Laurent and @Kristina | Jul 20, 2021 |
Laurent Di Raimondo wrote:
The only way to get assignments from agencies consists in answering their tenders displayed into the Job Offer forum depending on your language pair and your proper fields of proficiency.
FWIW, ProZ.com itself would disagree with you on this. ProZ.com staff have said on numerous occasions that most jobs that translators get come from clients who visit translators' profile pages and contact them privately or individually, and that the job posts system accounts for only a very small percentage of jobs that translators get via this site.
Of course, I have no idea where that information comes from. Perhaps there were some polls about this in the past that we can check? We can only speak about our own experiences. In my case, I'd say less than 5% of jobs that I got via ProZ.com (not counting ones that I got from actively contacting agencies directly) came from the jobs posts. But clearly you and those who pressed the "I agree" button had a different experience.
Kristina Love wrote:
They don't mind removing a newcomer's chance to exercise their research skills and gain some standing, just to make their status known. Those people are intentionally stealing a little bit of dignity from newcomers because they disdain them; but so be it.
I think I now understand what you mean.
But then I would have to disagree with you. You see, the main purpose of the KudoZ system is to give assistance to colleagues who are desperately looking for answers about terminology. That is what KudoZ is actually for.
KudoZ is not primarily there to give new translators an opportunity to sharpen their research skills. KudoZ is not primarily there to allow translators to move up in directory searches. You seem to suggest that experienced translators should refrain from answering questions so that new translators can get the opportunity to gain points or to gain research experience, but that is not what KudoZ is for.
The main (and intended) beneficiaries of the KudoZ system are not the translators who answer questions, but the ones who ask questions. The fact that you can get points, enjoy interaction with colleagues, do some interesting research, learn some new things yourself, etc., are all nice added benefits of the KudoZ system, but that is not what KudoZ is for.
If anyone were to suggest that experienced translators should keep quiet and "give others a chance" instead of giving the best possible answers as soon as possible, then they completely miss the point of KudoZ.
[Edited at 2021-07-20 07:36 GMT]
| | | | Tony Keily
Local time: 13:59
Italian to English
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| I really don't care | Jul 20, 2021 |
When I have time, I see if I can help someone out. Sometimes I post in the discussion section. The only time I will definitely post in the "points" section is if I think a misleading answer has been given that might not work. But I never look at what points/KudoZ/brownies/wallets or whatever I have or have been given. To be honest, I don't even know what they are! At least I can convert my local supermarket customer loyalty (i.e. consumer obedience) points every six months into a dodgy no-brand ... See more When I have time, I see if I can help someone out. Sometimes I post in the discussion section. The only time I will definitely post in the "points" section is if I think a misleading answer has been given that might not work. But I never look at what points/KudoZ/brownies/wallets or whatever I have or have been given. To be honest, I don't even know what they are! At least I can convert my local supermarket customer loyalty (i.e. consumer obedience) points every six months into a dodgy no-brand blender that I'll never use. ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 13:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Tony Keily wrote:
KudoZ/brownies/wallets ... I don't even know what they are!
BrowniZ points used to be a kind of loyalty scheme whereby you would get points for everything you did on the site, and then you could get a discount on your membership fee or get one-time access to certain member-only services. They were trying to encourage non-paying members to participate. Activities that were more useful to other translators were also worth more BrowniZ points. Over the years, fewer and fewer things could be bought with BrowniZ points, so eventually the points system were stopped. BrowniZ were useful 20 years ago when the site was still young.
KudoZ points were intended as a mechanism to show clients whether a translator is regarded by his peers to be an expert in a given field. So, you would get points if your answer was chosen as the most helpful. While "most helpful" does not necessarily mean "most accurate", on average if a person has many KudoZ points in a given field, it means that he is likely to be regarded by his peers as being knowledgeable in that field. This system worked fine in the beginning, when there weren't so many members (and so many members who have been members for decades).
These days, it's impossible for a new member to gather enough KudoZ points (compared to members who have tens of thousands of points) to even matter. This means that KudoZ points are only relevant in very specialized fields or very rare languages. The odds are stacked against new members: the only way to get a higher position in the directory results is to wait for the old members to die or retire.
Fortunately, the main purpose of KudoZ (i.e. not KudoZ points but the actual KudoZ system) is still alive: to answer terminology questions posted by colleagues.
| | | | TonyTK
German to English
+ ...
| In the good old days ... | Jul 20, 2021 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
The odds are stacked against new members: the only way to get a higher position in the directory results is to wait for the old members to die or retire.
... you could use BrowniZ to hire a hit man.
| | | | Kristina Love
United States
Local time: 07:59
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Please read the whole thread for important context. | Jul 20, 2021 |
I've really said quite a bit already in this thread, and much that acknowledges and agrees with pretty much everyone's viewpoint that has been stated so far.
I know it's a little tedious to read the whole thread, and the entirety of all of my comments, but I really would appreciate anyone who does bother to do so before adding to the commentary in any way that refers back to me. There seems to be a perception that my view on all of this is quite different than the reality, even tho... See more I've really said quite a bit already in this thread, and much that acknowledges and agrees with pretty much everyone's viewpoint that has been stated so far.
I know it's a little tedious to read the whole thread, and the entirety of all of my comments, but I really would appreciate anyone who does bother to do so before adding to the commentary in any way that refers back to me. There seems to be a perception that my view on all of this is quite different than the reality, even though I've spoken up for myself in detail . If I had to guess, this is because most people read only the most recent posts.
For the record, I am sorry that I made the remark quoted in the excerpt above, and I regret it. All the same, that represents about 5% of what I have been actually saying here, and was taken out of context. I was talking about a "few here and there" and I was stating my own honest perception of a vanishing minority of people, ones who I only have a vague sense of and haven't even identified in my own mind. If that seemed rude and gave offense, I do apologize - sincerely. Had I anticipated that that segment would be isolated and pointed up without context of everything else I have already said, I would most definitely not have said it.
To Laurent, I am being completely honest and sincere when I say that when I questioned you about what seemed to be contradictory statements in another thread I had recently read, it was NOT my intention to call you out or be confrontational. I did say that the seeming contradiction might be my own misunderstanding and I was inviting you to clarify further. My aim in doing so was to understand what your thoughts actually are, and learn what led you to draw those conclusions, because I'm trying to orient myself here and figure out what's true. I didn't, at the time, think I was being impolite to you, but it can be difficult to judge tone in a text-only environment, so I'm sorry I inadvertently stepped on your toes.
I'm the one who opened this topic, and I would close it if I knew how to, but as far as I know, only site staff can do that. It has more than served its original purpose. Others happen by and understandably want to join the discussion out of interest in the topic, but it would be nice if someone would post the topic in a different thread and leave this one alone. People are quite unlikely to go back and read first-hand everything I actually said, and at this point I feel that this thread is propagating a generalized distorted perception of who I actually am and what views I hold.
In the future, if I participate in forums at all, I will endeavor to do so with strangling caution lest I be branded for all time by a sound bite. ▲ Collapse
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