| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | New KudoZ rules (proposal) Thread poster: mediamatrix (X)
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| I don't agree about banning google searches | Dec 6, 2009 |
I understand that there are a lot of useless lists of google sites pasted into answers, but then personally I read through them and can see how erroneous they are.
I only post questions when I have looked through every relevant dictionary and done considerable internet searches and am still stumped. It would be wonderful if the perfect subject-matter expert were out there ready and waiting to answer my question, but that is not always the case, so I welcome any effort to answer my ... See more I understand that there are a lot of useless lists of google sites pasted into answers, but then personally I read through them and can see how erroneous they are.
I only post questions when I have looked through every relevant dictionary and done considerable internet searches and am still stumped. It would be wonderful if the perfect subject-matter expert were out there ready and waiting to answer my question, but that is not always the case, so I welcome any effort to answer my question, because other people have different ways of solving problems and if they don't give me the answer, they can send me off on another research route to find an answer. So the last thing I want is for more and more people and methods of answering to be banned from making an effort to help me. After all I can take or leave their answer. ▲ Collapse
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 02:09
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | No-one here has suggested 'banning Google searches' | Dec 6, 2009 |
Lesley Clarke wrote:
I don't agree about banning google searches
The suggestion is that there should be a ban on posting nothing more than the URL used to generate a Google search results page, as I tried to clarify in my second post above.
MediaMatrix
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 02:09
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Nothing can be 'handled by moderators' ... | Dec 6, 2009 |
Sangro wrote:
Slogans could perhaps be handled by moderators.
... unless there are rules they can quote which clearly outlaw the offending questions.
MediaMatrix
| | | | | I beg to disagree | Dec 6, 2009 |
Russell Jones wrote: philgoddard wrote:
Each time someone submits a question, they should have to check "yes" or "no" to the following:
Have you looked in a dictionary? (I very politely asked someone this a few days ago, and got reprimanded by a moderator)
There is a world of difference between the site requiring an answer to this question and an individual User doing so. The first is a pre-condition (albeit unenforceable); the second amounts to a "Comment or insinuation concerning an ... asker's ... decision to post a certain question ..." (in contravention of site rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.7#3.7).
It would take a real cynic to think that asking an Asker what they had found already is insinuating anything. After all, it's a straightforward question that colleagues ask one another! Because help should start where the translator seeking help left off! How often do we see questions with no context or info that are answered by people eager to help, only to find that their help is rejected because "that's what I found already". Why waste people's time? Why shouldn't colleagues politely ask Askers to explain what they've done, what they've found, why the dico translations aren't suitable for their context etc. What IS the problem with that?
[Edited at 2009-12-06 16:41 GMT]
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | jacana54 (X) 
Uruguay
English to Spanish
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I agree with mediamatrix and Robert too.
| | | | kamilw
Local time: 08:09
English to Polish
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| preview tinyurl | Dec 6, 2009 |
To prevent sending people to dodgy pages, tinyurl has this nifty little feature of "preview TinyURL". It first opens a page where we can preview the url of the page that will be eventually opened. I use this feature and recommend it to everyone. While someone with enough skill and malice could perhaps find a way round it to do some harm anyway, by resonable terms it still seems much safer than using direct tinyurls.
| | | | | And the usefulness of reducing questions is? | Dec 6, 2009 |
philgoddard wrote:
If everyone answered these honestly, it would reduce the number of questions by about 50%.
I don't see your point, sorry, nobody is forced to answer questions, so no waste of time is involved here.
Regards
Angio
PS Edited to remember that the site is also available to students and beginners.
[Edited at 2009-12-07 12:39 GMT]
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| No one is talking about reducing questions | Dec 6, 2009 |
Angio Garbarino wrote: philgoddard wrote:
Have you researched this term on the internet?
Have you checked it is not already in the glossary?
Does it consist of more than ten words?
Does it include phrases like "in this context" or "see question"?
If everyone answered these honestly, it would reduce the number of questions by about 50%. I don't see your point, sorry, nobody is forced to answer questions, so no waste of time is involved here. Regards Angio PS Edited to remember that the site is also available to students and beginners. [Edited at 2009-12-06 18:16 GMT]
The point is that everyone, including students and beginners, can learn to ask questions in a more professional manner. That will be very beneficial to them because the quality and accuracy of the help offered will improve, since translators will be able to zero in on the questions better. And it will help them learn how to research too. Isn't that why those rules were originally written and used? To guide beginners and students so they could get the most out of Kudoz?
| | | | heikeb
Ireland
Local time: 07:09
Member (2003)
English to German
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I'm in two minds regarding slogans.
I fully agree that, theoretically, they should be posted as separate jobs and paid for adequately.
However, the real problem with slogans is not translators asking for help, but end clients expecting translators to spit out great translations of slogans, marketing campaigns, catchy headings, etc. with (sometimes ultra) short deadlines and for the same rate as "normal" text, whereas their entire marketing team probably had clear guid... See more I'm in two minds regarding slogans.
I fully agree that, theoretically, they should be posted as separate jobs and paid for adequately.
However, the real problem with slogans is not translators asking for help, but end clients expecting translators to spit out great translations of slogans, marketing campaigns, catchy headings, etc. with (sometimes ultra) short deadlines and for the same rate as "normal" text, whereas their entire marketing team probably had clear guidelines according to the intended message, maybe months of time and were well paid for their efforts. This kind of translation request is usually part of a larger "normal" project, so it is even to some degree understandable that the entire project is handed to the translator with the same rate for everything.
If a translator were to outsource a couple of slogans - let's say from a company website with one catchy slogan on each of the pages - they might have to pay a large chunk of the money they receive for many hours work just for those slogans. And good luck to them asking their end clients for appropriate compensation in return!
I have asked occasionally for input on slogans in the past. In those cases, I don't expect perfect answers which I will just take and use in my translation and reap the rewards for it, but instead I consider it a bit like brain storming to get some different views and interpretations. If I have my friend (also a translator) around, I ask her for feedback and ideas. What's wrong with asking colleagues for some input on those issues? After all, if a Proz question looks like a slogan, you're free to not answer it, as with all questions.
I also have answered many slogan questions in the past and have had great fun and satisfaction doing so. I always thought them a nice creative break from all the dry technical questions.
Of course, the thought that the end client will go completely crazy about the brilliant answer provided by their translator and heap them with praise, fame, money and tons of future jobs is not so pleasant, but let's face reality: More often then not, the end client will take that brilliant translation for granted and not even waste a second thought on it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Nothing wrong with the occasional slogan... | Dec 6, 2009 |
mediamatrix wrote:
The suggestion is that there should be a ban on posting nothing more than the URL used to generate a Google search results page, as I tried to clarify in my second post above.
MediaMatrix
Sometimes searches lead to OCR-ed or protected pages that cannot be copied.
Limiting the possibilities to support your response because some URLs become invalidated over time is not the way to go.
About slogans: translating marketing material can be quite exhausting, and although I am definitely against any abuse of the KudoZ help (as sometimes may happen), I can see nothing wrong with the occasional slogan.
| | | | Yaotl Altan
Mexico
Local time: 00:09
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
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Ok, when will these good measures be implemented?
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Claudio Porcellana (X)
Italy
| New KudoZ rules (proposal) | Dec 6, 2009 |
I partially agree on philgoddard list, but with a different order and some changes
Have you provided adequate context, including the type of document and what comes before and after this word or phrase?
AGREE, mandatory, and if the peer didn't put any context, don't answer until a context is delivered
Have you looked in a dictionary?
AGREE, mandatory, and if the word is easily found on a common dictionary, to pillory!
 ... See more I partially agree on philgoddard list, but with a different order and some changes
Have you provided adequate context, including the type of document and what comes before and after this word or phrase?
AGREE, mandatory, and if the peer didn't put any context, don't answer until a context is delivered
Have you looked in a dictionary?
AGREE, mandatory, and if the word is easily found on a common dictionary, to pillory!
it is a general existential subject, I think: I was accustomed by my parents to try to find a solution and only after some fruitless attempts, to cry for help: I think it's a sound way to grow, humanly and professionally
The opposite way, i.e. cry always immediately for help is just a way to be left at the life's post
Have you checked it is not already in the glossary?
Not so valuable, as glossaries aren't revised
Have you searched this term on the internet?
DON'T AGREE
to me, Internet is the very last ditch!
it's not the bible
it is populated by far less than half mankind
furthermore, considering that:
A - web pages are populated by many faulty people, and often their work is not revised by any good authority
B - web pages are populated by more and more MT works, lately and unluckily
the value of Internet is very scarce, and I can accept a google search result ONLY if it comes from a good authority, e.g. Google books, governative websites and so
Claudio
[Modificato alle 2009-12-06 21:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | New KudoZ rules (proposal) | Dec 6, 2009 |
mediamatrix wrote:
Suggestions based on frequent abuse:
No slogans.
If the source term or expression is a complete commercial slogan, post it as a job, not a Kudoz.
Source-language slogans are often the result of very highly paid work by PR specialists and usually cannot be ‘translated’. They need to be rebuilt from the bottom up in the target language/culture using the same detailed information as was available to whoever originated the slogan.
Posting slogans as Kudoz devalues the work of the originator, cheapens the translation profession and stops someone (maybe a colleague) from earning a decent living.
No Google (or similar) search page URLs
Simply posting the URL of a Google search results page is useless – what other users see if they click that link depends on how they have set up their browser (preferred languages or security settings, for example) and the results will change from one minute to the next – let alone what users may see if they click the link in the KOG several years later.
The only useful, long-term way to put Google results into the KOG is cut ‘n paste of meaningful content (i.e. quote from the text).
No tinyurl’s (or similar)
There is no indication of the source of these links and no self-respecting Prozian would ever want to click one without knowing where it will take them. They are known as a means of propagating viruses … or worse.
Like Google searches, they have short life-spans (linkrot). Proz.com has oooodles of empty Gbytes on its servers – the company doesn’t need this space-saving gadget any more than the rest of the community needs viruses or pornography.
****
What say others?
MediaMatrix
Since I have already answered, I will only give an example of a question I have answered myself only by mean of Google searching. Just as food for thought.
www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_spanish/mechanics_mech_engineering/3584942-krähenfussschlüssel.html#8107273
Should I consult a dictionary or should I prefer to rely on those who handle with this type of tools every day?
Is my answer wrong?
Is my answer not explicit enough?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_picture_is_worth_a_thousand_words
Well, I do not know the answers. Maybe others know them.
But, I am still convinced that simple Google search may be quite useful.
[Editado a las 2009-12-06 22:01 GMT]
| | | | Russell Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:09
Italian to English
| Open and Closed | Dec 6, 2009 |
[quote]writeaway wrote:
I beg to disagree
It would take a real cynic to think that asking an Asker what they had found already is insinuating anything.
I agree. The difference is between an open question:
Can you tell us what you found in your searches so far? = an offer of help
and a closed question:
Have you looked in a dictionary? = I believe the answer can be found in a dictionary - the basic resource of anyone claiming to be a professional translator, so why are you bothering us? = an insult.
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