24 de diciembre (Noche Buena y Navidad)

18:56 Jun 27, 2011 

Como dirían el Chapulín Colorado y el Chavo del 8, respectivamente, "la idea es esa"... (eso, eso, eso)

18:54 Jun 27, 2011 

do a solomon on em

18:48 Jun 27, 2011 

they suggested splitting the kids up instead of chopping them in half! ;O)

18:37 Jun 27, 2011 

petitioners is that they wish to reach a fair and amicable agreement with respect to their children, thus I believe their intention is: “F) With respect to December 24th and 25th (Christmas Eve and Christmas Day) and December 31st and January 1st (New Year’s Eve and New Year’s Day), the minors shall spend one of such festive periods with their mother, and the other with their father, alternating the following year.” This is my understanding, taking into account the rest of the agreement, where the parents mention birthdays, Easter and other dates, where the kids are never split up, and their intentions are clearly to reach a fair agreement and share their time equally with their kids. Thanks for everyone’s input. Having read all suggestions, I basically agree with WTSTranslations suggestion to “ leave it just as vague as the original- unless you are able to verify with the client/author of source text”

18:37 Jun 27, 2011 

When I asked this question I felt a bit daft for doing so, thinking that, as WTSTranslations says, the parents’ intentions are obvious, i.e. both kids with one parent 24th and 25th and both kids with the other parent over the new year, 31st and 1st, alternating the following year. But with all the responses there is food for thought. i.e. what to do with ambiguus and plainly incorrect source texts, especially regarding legal documents. To my mind, as a translator I should always presume the worst, i.e. the document may become subject to a legal dispute, and that it is not my job to improve on a poorly drafted agreement, but it is my business to satisfy the client. Anyway, I decided to ask my agency, who in turn contacted the client, who was not one of the divorce petitioners, but some other third party (not sure if it’s the original drafter), and their suggestion was ridiculous, i.e. according to the client, “the kids were to be split up, one kid with each parent over each of such festive periods". So I decided to translate as literally as possible and add a translator’s note suggesting that the source text be corrected and that my understanding of the intentions of the divorce...

08:46 Jun 23, 2011 

Thanks Merlinva, you're right, it was late! You are also absolutely right about my suggested translation. :-)

08:07 Jun 23, 2011 

Hi Rich. I'd instinctively say Navidad in this particular case is meant to refer exclusively to Christamas Day, if only because it's set against New Year's Eve (with no mention of New Year's Day!). However, it's obviously poorly worded and ambiguous, and can be understood and translated in different ways. Perhaps the client has a much clearer picture of what it's supposed to mean or, once the situation has been explained, can at least tell you what idea s/he'd like the translation to convey. As you said, you wouldn't want any trouble to arise due to the translation, but there's only so much you can do with a poorly worded source text. Good luck!

01:51 Jun 23, 2011 

Oooops!! You are absolutely right, Sharon, my apologies and thank you for showing me my mistake. It is quite late and not good to work when tired. There was no intention of lecturing you on translation, more on anthropology and language ;-). It was just an attempt to clarify and make available some cultural aspects of the Spanish language and social life, specially nice if it means talking about holidays. Thank you again and have a good night.

01:05 Jun 23, 2011 

Why, thanks for the translating lesson Merlinva! ;-) As an aside, could I just point out that it is incorrect to include "of" when writing dates? "The" and "of" are used for dates in speech only, and are never written.

00:51 Jun 23, 2011 

1st of January (Año Nuevo)= New Year 's Day
If a British English speaker listened to the sentence "I put the messages in the press" s/he would think that a journalist or a print worker was talking about printing some information but for an Irish English speaker, it means something totally different, it is " I put the shopping in the cupboard" . This shows how important is the cultural aspect of a language. :-)

00:45 Jun 23, 2011 

Sharon, translation implies to translate the words, their cultural usage and meaning to another socio-linguistic, cultural context and code. Some times we also have to translate through time. Languages are social tools for that reason the meanings of the same words in the same language might differ between countries, regions, social classes, ethnic and religious groups and historical periods. In Spain and as far as I know in the Spanish speaking world, when people say "Navidades" "la/s Navidades" "en Navidad" they might imply the whole festive period ending the 6th of January, which is know as "las vacaciones de Navidad". If they want to meet on Christmas day they would say "el día de Navidad" Nobody says "las vacaciones de Reyes" they might say "por Reyes" meaning the Epiphany days or "Los Reyes" within the whole Christmas holiday period or Navidades. In Spanish, each major Christmas holiday day is named differently, so it has been in the UK since almost twenty years I have been there. As I listed them earlier:
24th of December (Nochebuena)=Christmas Eve
25th of December (Navidad)=Christmas Day
31st of December (Nochevieja)= New Year´s Eve
1st of January (Año Nuevo)= New Year 's

00:05 Jun 23, 2011 

it is the first time I participate in a ProZ discussion and I am not sure of how it works and how to reply to comments. I agree with WTS regarding the diversity of interpretations a text might have. We all had mediocre to badly written source texts and know the additional difficulties they cause to the translators.
Also with rich11, regarding the term Christmas also does mean the holiday period a that time of the year. I also agree with Lisa, as it would be a regular procedure to alternate holidays but the text does not clearly state so, therefore it is advisable just to translate what is written, even if it seems incorrect.

00:02 Jun 23, 2011 

In my opinion the source text is badly worded, as "24 de diciembre" is stated, yet in brackets both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day are stated. For me, "Christmas" means Christmas Eve and Christmas Day only. However, this may be cultural, as it seems others here view "Christmas" as a more extended period of time. Therefore, I can see why others have pointed out that both days should be translated, as per the source text, especially as this is a legal text, even though it conflicts with "24 de diciembre" and does not make sense. "Fair do's", as they say.

23:22 Jun 22, 2011 

The variety of comments posted in response to this question and its proposed answers are a clear reflection of what might happen should one of the parties seek legal action based on an alleged violation of the clause in question.

23:11 Jun 22, 2011 

If I say I'm going away for Xmas, I give the impression I'll be away for more than just the 24th or 25th

23:05 Jun 22, 2011 

I don't think the same parent has them on "for both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and then (the same parent?) has them again on New Year's Eve". But rather “uno (de tales fechas) lo pasarán los menores con la madre y el otro (de tales fechas) con el padre y en forma alternada el año siguiente”. Thus, if the mother had the kids on Xmas eve-day, the father would have them on New Year’s Eve-Day (over the same holiday period) and the following year dad on Xmas eve-day and mum on new years eve-day.

22:39 Jun 22, 2011 

The parent has the kid/s for both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day and then has them again on New Year's Eve. I speak for the UK /Ireland but if you're translating for the US maybe it's different, I don´t know. Maybe you could put /(Christmas Eve/Christmas Day)?

21:49 Jun 22, 2011 

I would avoid that.

21:43 Jun 22, 2011 

Maybe: December 24th (Christmas Eve until Christmas Day) and December 31st (New Year’s Eve until New Year’s Day)
But in this case I'd be adding text that doesn't exist in the original.

21:27 Jun 22, 2011 

This is definitely a tricky one. We all know what is "really meant" - that the kinds get to spend Christmas with one parent and New Year's with another. But the way it is written seems like an invitation for a legal battle (at least here in the U.S.). What if the kid is not home when the clock strikes 12 on New Year's Eve, and it is no longer Dec. 31?

By the way, I would not eliminate the names of the holidays to be "politically correct"; this is a legal document, and you've got to translate whatever it says. (This comes from someone who still dares to say "merry Christmas" as opposed to "happy holidays").

That aside, had the involved parties (remembers, this is a divorce agreement) been of a different religion, they probably would have worked something into the agreement granting them parenting time on their particular holidays.
- Nikolaj