Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Italian term or phrase:
che lo facesse venire
English translation:
to have him come
Added to glossary by
James (Jim) Davis
May 21, 2009 20:04
15 yrs ago
Italian term
che lo facesse venire
Italian to English
Social Sciences
History
The following sentence from a 16th century text by Paolo Giovio, Commentario de le cose de' Turchi, is leaving me very confused. The context is a discussion between the Turkish sultan Bayazet and two counselors about the ongoing conflict between his two sons, Selim and Acomat. The sentence reads: "Questi dui persuaseron a Baiazeto che perdonasse a Selim che lo facesse venire e gli desse l'impresa contra Acomat, dicendo che la cosa ad ogni modo reuscirebbe bene ancor che Selim rimanesse perditore perché in tal caso un tristo si castigarebbe con l'altro."
My attempt at a translation so far is: "These two convinced Bayazet that he should have forgiven Selim, that he should have summoned him and given him the enterprise against Acomat, saying that it may be successful even if Selim were defeated, since in that case one knavish [or simply, nasty] deed would punish itself with another."
I have posted this question already on the forum at WordReference.com, but I am not completely satisfied with the answers. For what it's worth, here they are:
"These two convinced Bayazet to forgive Selim, and got him to come, giving to him(Selim) instead of to Acomat the enterprise, saying that everything would turn out well even if Salim stayed lost, because in that case one bad deed would be the punishment for another."
"These two exhorted Bayazet to forgive Selim, summon him at court and "give him the enterprise???" against Acomat, saying that it would be a success even if Selim were defeated, since in that case the two "tristi??" would punish each other."
Thanks for any help.
My attempt at a translation so far is: "These two convinced Bayazet that he should have forgiven Selim, that he should have summoned him and given him the enterprise against Acomat, saying that it may be successful even if Selim were defeated, since in that case one knavish [or simply, nasty] deed would punish itself with another."
I have posted this question already on the forum at WordReference.com, but I am not completely satisfied with the answers. For what it's worth, here they are:
"These two convinced Bayazet to forgive Selim, and got him to come, giving to him(Selim) instead of to Acomat the enterprise, saying that everything would turn out well even if Salim stayed lost, because in that case one bad deed would be the punishment for another."
"These two exhorted Bayazet to forgive Selim, summon him at court and "give him the enterprise???" against Acomat, saying that it would be a success even if Selim were defeated, since in that case the two "tristi??" would punish each other."
Thanks for any help.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
May 23, 2009 17:26: James (Jim) Davis Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+2
9 hrs
Selected
to have him come
These two persuaded .... to forgive Selim and to have him come
This translates the neutrality of the Italian. We don't know from the context just how he had him come, by forcing him to come (make him come, because he doesn't want to) or by allowing him to come (let him come, because he wants to) or just simply by asking him (summoned). If the general context clearly shows how it was done, you can adjust the translation.
This translates the neutrality of the Italian. We don't know from the context just how he had him come, by forcing him to come (make him come, because he doesn't want to) or by allowing him to come (let him come, because he wants to) or just simply by asking him (summoned). If the general context clearly shows how it was done, you can adjust the translation.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Michael Korovkin
: Right. "Let him come" implies the desire to come, and would be "lasciasse venire" – not facesse.
53 mins
|
agree |
potra
: Yes, summoned would work as well in this context
9 hrs
|
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks for the suggestions. He ultimately writes to him to come ("Baiazetto scrisse di sua propria mano a Selim che venisse alla porta.") Thus, perhaps a better translation would be: "These two exhorted Bayazet to forgive Selim, and summon him to come and take up the enterprise against Acomat..." I think the word "summon" is appropriate here, considering it is the Sultan doing the asking..."
+1
3 mins
that he let him come
or
that he ask him to come
that he ask him to come
Peer comment(s):
agree |
swisstell
19 mins
|
agree |
Joseph Tein
: I agree with 'ask him to come' ... and since it's 'faccesse' I would go even farther and say "that he make him come".
4 hrs
|
disagree |
Michael Korovkin
: Sorry! Never disagreed with your usually excellent suggestions before, but "let him come" implies the desire to come, and would be "lasciasse venire" – not "facesse". Jim's right, I think...
10 hrs
|
56 mins
for making him come
That's how I understand it.
These two persuaded Baiazeto to forgive Selim for making him come and giving him the enterprise against Acomat, by saying that it would all go well anyway even if Selim was defeated because in that case a bandit would be punished by another.
These two persuaded Baiazeto to forgive Selim for making him come and giving him the enterprise against Acomat, by saying that it would all go well anyway even if Selim was defeated because in that case a bandit would be punished by another.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Fiorsam
: The subjunctive "facesse" constradicts your interpretation.
1 hr
|
neutral |
Joseph Tein
: Agree with Fiorsam above. In Spanish it would be "...que lo perdonara y que lo hiciera venir y que le diera ..."
3 hrs
|
5 hrs
to bid him come (se e' un ordine)/to cause him to come (se sta per *persuadere*)
that's the way I would do it
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Note added at 5 hrs (2009-05-22 01:20:51 GMT)
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*To let him come*, if it implies permission
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Note added at 5 hrs (2009-05-22 01:20:51 GMT)
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*To let him come*, if it implies permission
Example sentence:
the King bid him come immediately/ the offer of good wages caused him to come
Discussion