https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/business-commerce-general/7132378-m%C3%A9tiers.html
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Médian séléctionné
May 11, 2023 21:45
1 yr ago
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French term

métiers

French to English Bus/Financial Business/Commerce (general)
The context is a case study about a wine and spirits company (founded in France, but an international presence) that is using a new business analytics software. The term "métiers" keeps coming up and i'm not sure to what exactly it refers. My first thought was the different departments within the company, but "services" is used in that context and I think there is a distinction.

"Pour ne pas risquer de recréer ce qui se faisait avec (former software), l’équipe projet a commencé par réaliser une démonstration des capacités de (new software) aux métiers, ce qui a permis d’ouvrir la discussion sur les indicateurs et les axes d’analyse les plus pertinents."

and elsewhere:

"Challenges:
Donner plus d'autonomie aux métiers"
Proposed translations (English)
3 +4 teams
4 +6 Business areas/sectors
4 +4 (business) discipline
4 -1 business lines
3 professions

Discussion

FPC May 13, 2023:
@Steve Robbie It is a metonymy but it's hard to render it as is in English . In French it's far more easily understood that the "métier" are the people plying that trade (whether employees or not). It's especially clear in a concern where they work side by side with other "métiers" (sometimes more precisely "corps de métier").
Conor McAuley May 12, 2023:
Give more freedom to staff... ...by chaining them to the tyranny of data-driven decisions and business analytics?

Oh, the lack of humanity.

FPC May 12, 2023:
My favorite is Phil's suggestion "departments", alternatively "staff/personnel" (although "staff" has sometimes a somewhat specific sense for some authors) hence Conor's "teams". That's what it means in this context, that is the different people and units contributing to the operation of this company (ranging from security, to quality control, to all the other wine-specific or anyway sector-specific jobs, such as https://www.studyrama.com/formations/fiches-metiers/metiers-...
Conor McAuley May 12, 2023:
To Emmanuella et al (EDIT)

What I'm thinking is that this sense of "métiers" was a slight or major (depending on your judgement) mistranslation of "business" dating back to the early days of enterprise software, which has gone uncorrected all this time, and that's why "métiers" is tricky to translate back into English.

"When did enterprise software start?
Started by a team of former IBM engineers in Germany, Systems, Applications and Products in Data Processing (SAP for short) was founded in 1972 to provide business software for enterprise-level manufacturers. They released their first ERP system, R/2, in 1992."

Purely a theory, but intriguing.
Emmanuella May 12, 2023:
@ Conor - c'est un terme utilisé dans le secteur qui remonte , au moins, aux années 1980 (dixit mon frère, technicien en informatique.
Emmanuella May 12, 2023:
Glossaire métier
https://www.tibco.com/fr/reference-center/what-is-a-business...
https://www.blogplm.com/2018/06/11/utilisateurs-metier-de-pl...

https://www.access-it.fr/services/application-metier/#contac...
Tony M May 12, 2023:
@ Asker There you go then! This is exactly the sort of text in which I've encountered this term being used. I think that re-inforces the notion that you can't use anything too concrete here.
Good luck!
Ruth Hill (asker) May 12, 2023:
@Tony M My text actually mentions "applications métiers" as well! Also "utilisateurs métiers" (of the software).
Ruth Hill (asker) May 12, 2023:
Many thanks! Thank you, everyone, for your helpful contributions!
AllegroTrans May 12, 2023:
Good point from Steve Albeit "metonym" was not in my vocabulary until today. I can certainly visualise circumstances both where "disciplines" (functions, names to describe things that are done) and "teams" (the people doing them) might be a suitable translation.
In Ruth's short extract, "teams" seems to fit the bill perfectly. As we cannot see the rest of the text, we can only speculate when, if ever, it will be a propos to use different terms.
Steve Robbie May 12, 2023:
@Tony I do think that's rather ponderous next to the French.

You lose more than you gain by trying to stay so close to the literal sense. And is it really true that something more concrete - but also more idiomatic - would "create a false meaning"? That's pure madness to me.
Tony M May 12, 2023:
@ Steve Metonymy, indeed — except that it is for something more abstract.
In that instance, I would probably keep it in full as 'business disciplines', where it has all its sense — this is one case where anything more concrete (teams, services, etc.) would create a false meaning
"To give the (various) business disciplines greater autonomy" doesn't shock me.
Steve Robbie May 12, 2023:
It's a metonym! @Tony
Literally it means "things that are done" in a business, but in practice it's a metonym for the people or divisions that do them. I think you have to have that in mind when translating it.
Would you really "give more autonomy to the *disciplines*"? It's not very idiomatic.
Tony M May 12, 2023:
@ Steve Although I certinaly agree with your opening remarks, I couldn't entirely endorse what you go on to say. I think the trouble to me seems to be that 'métier' is used to refer to a fairly intangible, conceptual idea of 'things that are done within a business', and particularly, things that are normally aligned along a certain specialization.
Hence I think ideas like 'area', 'unit', 'service', 'team' etc. are too concrete and organizational.
I agree that per se you don't need the same translation throughout a document, although if you don't, you do have to be terribly careful not to confuse the reader!
Steve Robbie May 12, 2023:
Multiple possibilities Métier is a bit of a cliché/buzzword and probably isn't being used to designate any one type of organisational unit - Ruth says they use "service" for that. Which means you don't necessarily need the same translation all the way through the document. I'd perhaps pick "areas of the business" for the sample sentence, but elsewhere, you might opt for e.g. "teams" (as Conor suggested).
Conor McAuley May 12, 2023:
I see nothing at all wrong with the "phone-a-friend" option, getting the permission of or going through any translation agency that might be involved, but if you want to do it on your own, try to figure out how the company is structured, and search the whole document for the term.

You'll probably find that you'll need something not too specific so as not to be wrong (like "professions") and not too broad so as not be wrong (like "divisions", wrong register anyway): again I'm making a case for my "teams"!
Conor McAuley May 12, 2023:
Entries for "métier": https://www.proz.com/search/?term=metier&from=fra&to=eng&ent...

I think what (edit) Tony is getting at with "type of activity" is similar types of profession, people who work together, hence "teams".

Also I think "métiers" might be a little jargony, and fairly recent (last few years) jargon at that – I don't remember seeing it a lot, say, 15 years ago (or maybe I didn't pick up on it or don't remember).
Tony M May 12, 2023:
@ Phil 'units' / 'departments' might work in certain specific situations, but don't in general, as the 'métier' is something much more abstract: 'the notion of a certain type of activity'.
The problem is that we can find sentences like "the accountancy (métier) is handled by the Finance Department, whereas the logistics (métier) is handled by the Despatch Department." In some cases in EN (possibly even my own example), we simply don't need a separate word, and could just use 'accounting' and 'logistics'. Sadly, in other cases, this isn't possibly. E.g. one of my customers uses 'applicatifs métiers', which refers to discipline-specific software applications like accountancy, scheduling, analysing, etc.
Tony M May 12, 2023:
@ Daryo Although I am generally in favour of asking the person concerned (though even then, some KudoZ colleagues stubbornly refuse to believe what they've said!), in this instance, I would be reluctant to do so, since this is a well-known expression in business FR; the trouble is, it expresses a concept that we don't really use much in EN, and it's difficult to find a concise single term that can be used in all (or multiple) situations.

I know for sure that the explanation I have given in my own suggestion is correct, having had it explained to me by several different, reliable sources; as to the actual term to use, I have merely suggested one that has worked consistently for me and my customers.
Daryo May 12, 2023:
Phone-a-friend? Simply call this company and ask them what exactly do they mean by "métiers"?

You can think of a more reliable source?
philgoddard May 11, 2023:
There are 228 entries for this term already, many with different contexts to this question, but some the same. Business units/departments are two possibilities.

Proposed translations

+4
50 mins
Selected

teams

You could look at this company, a big Burgundy-based wine business with wines from various other regions too: https://www.boisset.fr/fr/?valid_legal=1

Is it structured by "Terroirs" or "Domaines & maisons", or both?

Teams is perhaps more modern than other options.

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Note added at 16 hrs (2023-05-12 13:46:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ruth, re

"applications métiers" and "utilisateurs métiers" (of the software)

"team" gets a ton of search search matches and some high-quality matches too:


"Personal vs. ***Team Applications*** in Microsoft Teams

SharePoint Maven
https://sharepointmaven.com › personal-vs-team-appli...
Aug 31, 2021 — *Did you know that in Microsoft Teams, ***Team Applications*** could be personal and/or belong to a Team? This article explains it all*."

Plenty of other search matches too, for what it's worth.


And the same applies to "team users", here's one example (and there are plenty of hits that don't refer to MS Teams):

"Manage Teams with Microsoft Teams PowerShell

Microsoft
https://learn.microsoft.com › Learn › Microsoft Teams
Oct 5, 2022 — ... get-team , set-team ), managing ***team users*** ( add-teamuser , remove-teamuser ), as well as cmdlets for managing the channels of the team"

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Note added at 16 hrs (2023-05-12 13:55:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Internet search "business analytics" + "team users" and you get things like

"development team users"
"Senior Leadership Team Users"
"field team users"
"IT team users"

Seems to fit.
Peer comment(s):
agree Steve Robbie : Not for the first sentence (where you've already got "project team" earlier on) but for the second one, definitely.
9 hrs
Interesting...you could simply change "project team" to "project management group" or some such, to avoid repeating "team"
agree AllegroTrans : Rather a good answer
12 hrs
Why thank you, my esteemed colleague! Haha! It came out of nowhere. Like most translators, I've been struggling with "métiers" for years too.
agree MoiraB : Great idea!
13 hrs
Thanks very much Moira!
agree FPC : You come closest to the meaning in the ST and in a way spot on since it's exactly the people working at different stages of the production cycle we're talking about, but unfortunately the connotation of "métier" is lost in translation. Up vote anyway.
19 hrs
I reckon that the literal and strict meaning of "métiers" is probably closer to "business functions", but that won't fit neatly and idiomatically in a translation. Maybe sometimes translation is just about hiding the joins!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much! It was hard to decide which answer to go with as there were so many helpful suggestions, but I decided on "teams" in the end!"
+6
14 mins

Business areas/sectors

To avoid the risk of recreating what was done with (former software), the project team began by demonstrating the capabilities of (new software) to the ( differing/varying) business areas/sectors, which made it possible to open up the discussion on the most relevant indicators and areas of (performance) analysis.
Note from asker:
Thank you very much!
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
1 hr
Thanks Phil
agree Philippa Smith
8 hrs
Thank you
agree Steve Robbie : "areas of the business" more than "business areas".
9 hrs
Thanks
neutral Conor McAuley : Getting close, but you can't "demonstrate what the new software does" to "business areas/sectors", it doesn't fit in on a language level
9 hrs
Thanks.
agree Anastasia Kalantzi
10 hrs
Thank you!
agree Emmanuella : https://budibase.com/business-apps/
18 hrs
Thank you!
agree SafeTex
20 hrs
Thank you!
neutral FPC : Not in the stricter sense it's used in the ST sentence. Areas/sectors could still do figuratively but it's not "business" in this case as there's only one business area in this company. It's rather different professional figures working in theta sector
20 hrs
Yep, thank you!
Something went wrong...
-1
28 mins

business lines

A corporation has different business lines; in your example it could be: the red wine production, the champagne production, the white wine, maybe the cognac production, etc…
Example sentence:

“To better meet your needs, XXXX is constantly building on its know-how and developing its business lines to offer you high-performance products and …”

Reference:

https://uk.linkedin.com/company/collectivino

Note from asker:
Thank you for the suggestion!
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : 'business line' is totally different from 'line of business' — and in this case, neither = 'métier'
14 mins
Something went wrong...
10 hrs

professions

Wine professions
Note from asker:
Thank you!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Only works in certain quite specific cases (and 'profession' has a very specific meaning in EN): can you imagine saying 'staff catering profession'?
30 mins
neutral AllegroTrans : too restrictive; the operatives who load the products onto delivery lorries can hardly be called professionals nor can what they do be described as a profession. "Wine professions" really makes zero sense.
2 hrs
But is it a “metier” still?
Something went wrong...
+4
39 mins
French term (edited): métier

(business) discipline

I always find this one very tricky, not least, because once it occurs, it usually recurs a great deal!
At least the first time it occurs, I usually put 'business discipline' in full, as it needs that really to make it clear what type of discipline is being referred to here. For later occurrences, I try to reduce it to just 'discipline', unless I fear some misunderstanding.
I don't at all claim this is a perfect translation, but if one is looking for a 'fits most' solution, this is the best I've found over many years of trying. And it does usually avoid any clashes with the other various terms that may be encountered, like those you have discounted.

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Note added at 1 day 7 hrs (2023-05-13 05:40:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

'functions' is another "buzzword" in EN that sometimes works for 'métier' here: the 'HR function', typically. But doesn't sit so easily with some other ones...
Note from asker:
Thank you very much!
Peer comment(s):
agree AllegroTrans : In some circumstances, yes
12 hrs
Thanks, C!
agree Marie-Pascale Wersinger
14 hrs
Merci, Marie-Pascale !
agree Samuël Buysschaert
15 hrs
Merci, Samuël !
agree Charlie Bavington : Man, sure I was answering this Q almost 20 years ago :-) In this context, it's basically anyone not in IT (he said flippantly). Business (as a qualifier) still often works (business applications/users) as does functional.
1 day 23 mins
Thanks a lot, Charlie! Couldn't agree more on all points.
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