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Italian to English: Giuseppe Smorto: pezzi di Paese dati per persi General field: Other Detailed field: Journalism
Source text - Italian Intervista al condirettore di Repubblica.it contenuta nel libro "Il caso Valarioti": una riflessione sul sud e sulla Calabria, sul ruolo dell'informazione e della cultura, il vittimismo meridionale e l'indifferenza italiana
Giuseppe Smorto: pezzi di Paese dati per persi
di Danilo Chirico e Alessio Magro (Il caso Valarioti) (06/06/2010) , foto -
le mappe - interviste
Il caso Valarioti
A un certo punto della conversazione si ferma un attimo, poi dice: «Il titolo di codice è rassegnazione». È l'estrema sintesi di un'analisi lucida sul rapporto che esiste tra l'Italia e il suo sud, tra l'informazione e la Calabria. È anche la conferma che l'analisi è senza indulgenze: per i grandi giornali (per i quali lavora), per il sud (dal quale proviene). Giuseppe Smorto è nato a Reggio Calabria ma vive a Roma da una vita. Fa il giornalista e guarda al Paese e alla sua città da un osservatorio privilegiato: è condirettore di Repubblica.it, il principale mezzo di informazione web del Paese.
Pensiamo che esista in Italia un doppio problema: quello della rappresentazione del sud e quello dell'autorappresentazione. A noi paiono del tutto insufficienti. È d'accordo?
A casa mia si leggeva Il Giorno. Lo dico per sottolineare che è passata un'epoca e che c'era un tempo in cui al sud andavano i grandi inviati. Proprio nelle ultime settimane nella sua rubrica sull'Espresso Giorgio Bocca ha ricordato alcune vicende calabresi raccontate nei suoi viaggi.Oggi è diverso.
Senza nulla togliere agli inviati di oggi, alcuni dei quali sono molto bravi, ho l'impressione che ai tempi del grande giornalismo su carta ci fosse un maggiore investimento sul sud da parte dei grandi giornali.
Perché accadeva?
Era come se ritenessero il sud ancora una questione aperta, risolvibile. Oggi invece s'è creato un effetto di abbandono e rassegnazione che va in direzione doppia. Oggi è come se il sud, o almeno certe zone del sud, nei grandi giornali venisse considerato un problema non risolvibile a breve termine. Questo, probabilmente, ha come conseguenza una più scarsa attenzione e un investimento giornalistico minore. Ma questo non accade solo per i giornali. Recentemente ho letto il libro di un magistrato che era stato in servizio a Locri: il ragionamento mi pare sempre lo stesso e riguarda il fatto che la Calabria è bella, la gente splendida ma poi bisogna andare via perché dalle nostre parti non si può combinare nulla di buono. Anche questa è rassegnazione. E in effetti la situazione è difficilissima: la procura di Reggio Calabria sotto attacco, Rosarno, il territorio ― checché se ne dica ― completamente controllato, la scarsità o forse dovrei dire assenza delle denunce. Poi succedono delle cose e la situazione cambia.
Spiegati.
In un periodo come il nostro in cui interi territori vengono considerati completamente consegnati alla criminalità succede che c'è uno scrittore che si chiama Roberto Saviano e cambia lo stato dei fatti.
Alla Calabria manca Saviano?
No, non è la risposta da dare. Però osservo che quando l'informazione riesce a trovare le forme ― anche artistiche ― di
raccontare un territorio alla fine la situazione cambia, i risultati cominciano a esserci e i casalesi vengono condannati. In questo caso, c'è stato un investimento dell'informazione: s'è parlato più di casalesi che di 'ndrangheta, eppure sappiamo benissimo che la 'ndrangheta è al momento l'organizzazione criminale più forte. Nelle scorse settimane Saviano ha scritto un articolo-provocazione in cui sostiene che dobbiamo essere tutti osservatori del voto sul modello di quelli Onu. La cosa viene presa come una boutade, eppure se si va in tantissimi paesi della Calabria o della Campania di osservatori ce ne sarebbe un gran bisogno. La verità è che fa paura in Italia dire che ci sono zone come l'Afghanistan. Insomma, alla Calabria manca il modo di finire in prima pagina con le idee.
I grandi giornali si sono fatti guidare da Saviano, eppure
avrebbero la forza e l'autorevolezza di fare da sé.
L'informazione non è pedagogica, è lo specchio del Paese e racconta quello che la gente vuole leggere. E poi è molto difficile mettere in pagina la tragica normalità dei fatti che, dopo il secondo o il terzo giorno, non interessa più nessuno.
Il tuo giornale o un altro grande giornale però potrebbero decidere di lanciare una grande campagna sul sud o la Calabria.Le statistiche che abbiamo a disposizione ci dicono che
quelli sono i posti di cui i nostri giornali si occupano di più.
Certo, si potrebbe fare sempre meglio, ma non potrebbe es-
sere una battaglia quotidiana. Ci sono delle difficoltà e delle
carenze però. Oggi innanzitutto c'è molta meno cronaca ― i
giornali sono stati sostituiti da internet ― per cui o si fanno dei
grandi approfondimenti, come è stato per esempio su Rosarno,
o fatalmente non ne parli. Oggi a volte si preferisce mandare
gli inviati in Colombia senza pensare che in certi momenti la
Colombia ce l'abbiamo alle porte di casa. E poi forse bisogna
guardare a cosa è accaduto a Palermo.
Siamo più avanti a Palermo.
Forse non ce ne rendiamo conto fino in fondo, ma nei fatti a Palermo la mafia è in totale disfacimento: resta un solo capo e l'organizzazione è allo sbando tanto da non riuscire neppure a chiedere il pizzo.
A Palermo c'è tanta gente che ci mette la faccia. È un processo più avanzato, in Calabria non succede ancora, la situazione è molto diversa. Ma credo che ogni tanto si dovrebbe parlare delle esperienze positive e magari non considerare la situazione come irrisolvibile.
Ma sono solo i grandi media a considerare "persi" certi
pezzi d'Italia o si tratta di una convinzione che appartiene
all'intera classe dirigente?
Secondo me è la stessa cosa. I grandi giornali riassumono posizioni che stanno nella classe dirigente, che vivono nell'opinione pubblica. «Certo che gli aborigeni li avete trattati davvero molto male». E lui risponde: «E voi gli zingari come li avete trattati?» Non sono più un'emergenza i rom, ci sembra normale ormai che i bambini stiano per strada, che esistano quei campi. Allo stesso modo sembra normale a tutti che la Calabria viva questa condizione.
Appare normale anche ai calabresi.
Il titolo di codice è "rassegnazione". È così da parte dei giornali che ritengono quel territorio senza possibilità di miglioramento a breve periodo e non prendono in considerazione quello che è accaduto con la mafia. Ma c'è rassegnazione anche tra i cittadini calabresi, divisi tra quelli che godono di questa situazione di arretratezza e assistenzialismo (senza magari essere collusi) e quelli che stanno male ma sono convinti che nulla possa cambiare, che non ce n'è la forza. Tutto questo conviene anche a chi controlla il territorio. C'è anche un problema sociale: nel momento in cui si disgrega il tessuto del lavoro, faciliti il lavoro dei clan. Più licenzi, meno lavoro offri e più braccia fornisci alla criminalità organizzata. Basti pensare alla trasformazione subìta da Crotone: era una grandissima realtà operaia e contadina con un tessuto democratico importante e anche lei è finita in mano alla 'ndrangheta con famiglie che riescono a eleggere persino un senatore in Germania.
Sono diverse le questioni in campo.
All'inizio di gennaio ho posto la questione durante una riunione del giornale. Ho detto: c'è stato l'attentato alla procura di Reggio Calabria, a due passi c'è la Piana dove è scoppiato il caso Rosarno e dall'altra parte la Locride. È una cosa normale che una zona così vasta di territorio ― dove peraltro vogliono costruire il ponte ― viva questa emergenza? Abbiamo parlato molto di Reggio in quelle settimane. Lo ripeto: i giornali potrebbero avere un ruolo e, secondo me, in determinati periodi ce l'hanno. Ma è lo Stato a dover essere più presente per prima cosa, non i giornali.
Nessun grande giornale ha una redazione in Calabria.
Questo è un problema.C'è un motivo per cui tutti i giornali non hanno una redazione in Calabria. Stiamo parlando di un territorio economicamente depresso e se non hai una base di possibili inserzionisti non apri. E c'è anche la complicazione che devi stare molto attento agli inserzionisti, a che soldi arrivano. Peraltro stiamo parlando di un mondo in crisi in cui i giornali non aprono più redazioni locali. Comunque l'impressione è che ― storicamente ― l'investimento informativo sul sud sia minore che in passato.
In questo può aiutare il web?
Il web può essere utile per tutti i luoghi che non appaiono nella grande informazione: può dare visibilità se lo fai bene e in modo serio.
Per la Calabria probabilmente l'omicidio di Peppe Valarioti e Giannino Losardo hanno segnato una cesura. E anche la memoria di quelle storie si sgretola.
Accade che alcune storie siano valorizzate di più e altre meno. Accade che le cose ― anche le morti ― in certi posti siano considerate più normali che altrove. E poi trent'anni fa soprattutto c'erano un altro sindacato e un altro partito, i fatti di Reggio erano ancora caldi. Diciamo che si può arrivare tranquillamente alla conclusione che, in qualche modo, tutti hanno abbandonato quel territorio: l'informazione, la politica.
La politica.
Beh, quale politico abbiamo espresso negli ultimi anni, quanta Calabria i politici hanno portato all'attenzione del Paese? Non mi pare affatto che la Calabria abbia prodotto una classe politica di grande livello.
In effetti no. La Calabria però produce tantissimi emigranti di grande qualità e successo.
È vero. E si dovrebbe trovare una modalità per valorizzare tutte le intelligenze che stanno in Calabria o fuori dalla Calabria in nome del futuro del territorio. Bisogna trovare il modo di valorizzare la nostra cultura del saper fare le cose. Chi lo fa? Difficile da realizzare, ma trovo affascinante l'idea di far ragionare il meglio che la Calabria ha prodotto su cinque o dieci grandi progetti concreti.
E questo fa parte dell'autorappresentazione. Riguarda
il modo di esprimersi e raccontarsi della Calabria. Corrado
Alvaro a parte, se pensi alla Calabria che artisti ti vengono
in mente?
Ai giornalisti più giovani dico sempre: leggete Corrado Alvaro se volete capire come si scrive in italiano... Mi viene in mente Carmine Abate che penso sia un grandissimo scrittore anche se forse per troppe volte ha raccontato dei calabro-albanesi, poi Mimmo Gangemi. A lui vorrei chiedere: perché hai iniziato a scrivere solo dopo la pensione? E di registi Calopresti, Amelio. Però confesso che l'unico film bello sulla Calabria è "Un ragazzo di Calabria". L'ho rivisto recentemente e mi sono commosso quando il ragazzo protagonista ha vinto i giochi della gioventù. Oggi quel film non glielo farebbero nemmeno fare...
Translation - English Interview with the co-director of Repubblica.it contained in the book ‘Il Caso Valarioti’: reflections on the South, Calabria, the role of information and culture, the mezzogiorno’s self-pity and Italy’s indifference.
Giuseppe Smorta: Parts of our country given up as lost
By Danilo Chirico and Alessio Magro Il Caso Valarioti (06/06/10)
Maps – Interviews
Il Caso Valarioti
In the middle of the conversation, he stops for a moment and says “the key to it all is submission”. This is the micro-summary of an eloquent analysis on the relationship between Italy and the South; between information and Calabria. It also confirms that the analysis is not too lenient; not towards the main newspapers (who he works for) nor towards the South (where he comes from). Giuseppe Smorta was born in Reggio Calabria but has lived in Rome for many years. He is a journalist and is extremely well-placed to observe both his city and his country – he is the co-director of Repubblica.it, the number one information broadcaster in Italy.
We believe that Italy has a two-part problem : on one hand, representation of the South, and on the other, the problem of self-representation. Do you agree that there are shortcomings in these areas?
In my house, we used to read Il Giorno [a Milan-based newspaper]. This is just to highlight the fact that, in times gone by, exceptional reporters used to come to the South. Just a few weeks ago in his column in L’Espresso, Giorgio Bocca wrote about his memories from his travels in Calabria. Today, it is different. Without taking anything away from today’s reporters, some of whom are excellent, I feel that in the times of great written journalism there was more investment in the South by the main newspapers.
Why did this happen?
It was as if the South was still an area than was very much open for debate; an issue that could be resolved. However, today there is a completely opposing feeling of abandonment and resignation. Nowadays, it is as if the South, at least in certain areas, is seen by the main newspapers as a problem that cannot be solved in the short term. The consequence of this is probably a reduced level of interest and journalistic investment. Yet newspapers are not an isolated case. I recently read a book by a judge who worked in Locri, and it is always the same story. Calabria is a beautiful place, the people are wonderful but you need to leave because nothing good ever comes of living there. This is also a type of resignation. The situation really is extremely difficult. The public prosecutor is under attack in Reggio Calabria and – whatever you might say – Rosarno is completely controlled, there is a lack, or maybe even a complete absence of charges brought against offenders. Then things happen and the situation changes.
Can you explain ?
In a moment such as this, when whole territories are given up to organised crime, a writer called Roberto Saviano appears and things are turned on their head.
Is Calabria lacking its own Saviano?
No, that’s not the answer. Although, I have noticed that when information is shaped in the right way – even artistically – in order to tell a territory’s story, the situation changes, results start to emerge and casalesi gang members are brought to justice. In this case, information was concentrated in one area, speaking more about casalesi than ‘ndrangheta, even though we all know that the ‘ndrangheta is the most powerful criminal organization at this moment in time. In the last few weeks, Saviano wrote a provocative article claiming that our elections should be observed in the same way the UN observes elections. Many see this as a joke, but in many places in Calabria or Campania there is a desperate need for this type of observation. In truth, Italians get frightened if people say there are areas like Afghanistan in their country. In a nutshell, what Calabria is lacking is a way to open everyone’s eyes to reality.
The main newspapers gave Saviano the lead in all this, yet they have the power and authority to be leaders themselves
Information is not about teaching, it is the reflection of a country and tells the people what they want to hear. It’s very difficult to write about the tragic regularity of what’s happening; after the second or third day, everyone will have lost interest.
But your newspaper or one of the other leaders could take the step of launching a high-profile campaign on the South or Calabria
The statistics we have available show that it is these places that our newspapers deal with the most. Of course we can always do more, but it can’t be a daily battle. However, there are problems and shortcomings. Firstly, there are now fewer reports – newspapers are being replaced by the internet – therefore there are either very in depth reports, like with Rosarno, or, tragically, nothing at all. Nowadays, we prefer to send reporters to Colombia without realising that we have our own Colombia on our doorstep. And we probably need to look at what happened in Palermo.
We’re doing better in Palermo
Maybe we don’t realise to what extent, but the fact is that in Palermo the mafia is very much in decline. There is only one gang leader left and the organisation is in such disarray that it no longer has the ability to demand protection money. In Palermo, many people have had the courage to come forward. The stage things are at now is very advanced, this is not the case in Calabria; the situation is very different. Still, I believe that every now and then we should speak about our positive experiences and not see the situation as impossible to resolve.
So is it just the mass media who think that parts of Italy are ‘lost’ or is it the belief amongst the whole of the ruling class?
I believe it is the same thing. The main newspapers bring together the views of the ruling class and public opinion. To those who claim “Clearly, you treated the aborigines terribly badly” one can respond “and the Romany gypsies – how did you treat them?” The situation of the Roma community is no longer seen as an emergency, it’s normal for us to see children living in the street and that there are Roma camps. In the same way, it is normal that Calabria is in the state it’s in.
And it’s normal for the Calabrians ?
The key word here is resignation. This is how newspapers view this region – without any hope of improvement in the near future. They don’t take into account what happened with the mafia. This resignation is also felt amongst the Calabrian people. They are divided into those who are taking advantage of the situation of underdevelopment and state hand-outs (without necessarily having links with organized crime) and then there are those who are suffering but are convinced that nothing will change because the impetus is lacking. All this helps those who are in control of the territory. There is also a social problem: once the labour market crumbles, work in gangs increases. A rise in dismissals and a fall in work leads to an increase in workers for organized crime. Just look what has happened in Crotone. It was a great labour and farming hub with democratic values, and yet, it ended up in the hands of the ‘ndrangheta where families can even get a senator elected in Germany.
There are different issues at play here
At the start of January I asked the question during a meeting for the newspaper. I said “there has been an attack on the public prosecutor’s office in Reggio Calabria, a stone’s throw from where the Rosarno incident broke out and just across from Locride. Is it normal that over such a large area – where they’re even thinking about building a bridge to Sicily – there is such an crisis? We’ve spoken a lot about Reggio in the last few weeks. I repeat, newspapers can play their part, and I believe that they have from time to time. However, the state must be in the front line, not newspapers.
None of the main newspapers has a newsroom in Calabria. This is a problem.
There is a reason why none of the main papers have a base in Calabria. We’re talking about a region in an economic depression and if you don’t have advertisers in the area, you don’t open. You also have to be very careful about these advertisers and where their money is coming from. Remember, this is also at a time of crisis when newspapers are no longer opening local newsrooms. That said, it seems historically that investment in information and the media is less in the South now than it was in the past.
Can the internet help here?
It can help all those places which aren’t featured in the mass media. It can give a story exposure if done well and professionally.
The murders of Peppe Valarioti and Giannino Losardo were probably a defining moment for Calabria, but the memory of those events is fading.
Some stories just happen to get more attention than others, and certain events – even deaths – are considered as more normal in some places than in others. Above all, 30 years ago there were different factions, the events of Reggio were still fresh in people’s minds. We can easily arrive at the conclusion that in one way or another, everyone has abandoned this territory, in the fields of politics and information.
Politics?
Well, which politician have we produced in the last few years? How much have politicians tried to draw the country’s attention to Calabria? It doesn’t seem to me that Calabria has produced a high-level political class.
Indeed, but Calabria has produced many highly successful emigrants.
That’s true. We should try to find a way of maximizing the potential of all the intelligence which is in Calabria or elsewhere on behalf of the future of the territory. We need to find a way of highlighting our culture of savoir faire. But who can do it? It’s not easy, but I love the idea of bringing together the best of what Calabria has to offer in five or ten major tangible projects.
This in involved in the idea of self-representation. It’s the way of expressing ourselves and speaking about Calabria. Corrado Alvaro aside, when you think about Calabria, which artists spring to mind?
I always tell young journalists, “if you want to know how to write in Italian, read Corrado Alvaro.” Carmine Abate springs to mind – I think he is an excellent writer even though he maybe wrote to much about the calabro-albanese, and then there’s Mimmo Gangemi. I’d like to ask him “why did you only start writing after you retired?” As for film directors, there’s Calopresti and Amelio. But admittedly the only great film on Calabria is Un ragazzo di Calabria (A Boy from Calabria). I saw it again recently and I was moved when the boy – the main character – wins the youth games. Today, this film wouldn’t even get made…
French to English: Transcription de l’interview de Catherine Lalumière General field: Art/Literary Detailed field: Government / Politics
Source text - French Transcription de l’interview de Catherine Lalumière
Alun Drake : Catherine Lalumière, soyez la bienvenue au Conseil de l’Europe.
Catherine Lalumière : Merci.
A.D. : Vous êtes une ancienne Secrétaire Générale de cette organisation. A votre avis, comment le Conseil peut continuer à jouer un rôle clé dans la protection des droits de l’homme et de la démocratie en Europe ?
C.L. : Vaste question. D’abord en croyant fortement à la mission qui lui a été confiée dès l’origine, c’est-à-dire dès 1949 quand le Conseil est créé, et cette mission étant de défendre des valeurs, et au premier rang de ces valeurs, le respect des droits de l’homme, de la personne humaine. Car évidemment, les droits des femmes sont aussi importants. Et le Conseil de l’Europe a énormément travaillé, la Convention européenne des droits de l’homme est un texte d’importance majeure, non seulement pour les Européens, mais elle rayonne dans le monde entier. Donc la première condition du succès, c’est de croire fortement en cette valeur clé, et de se battre pour la faire respecter et rayonner. Mais il y a d’autres conditions pour garantir le succès du Conseil de l’Europe : c’est que ses Etats membres, et la société toute entière elle aussi, soient conscients de l’importance de ses valeurs humanistes. Le Conseil de l’Europe tout seul ne peut pas faire de miracles. Il doit être accompagné, soutenu par ses Etats membres, qui ne doivent pas, comme ils ont tendance parfois à le faire, passer l’éponge sur des violations, lorsque pour des raisons politiques ou de géopolitique, ils préfèrent ne pas regarder, dans certains territoires, les violations des droits de l’homme. Donc les Etats membres peuvent décrédibiliser l’action du Conseil de l’Europe. Et de même la société toute entière, préoccupée de consommer les biens de consommation, de gagner de l’argent etc, elle aussi, cette société civile, risque d’avoir un comportement qui décrédibilise la notion de droits de l’homme. Donc le succès en matière de droits de l’homme, le succès du Conseil de l’Europe nécessite la mobilisation du Conseil de l’Europe, le soutien des Etats membres, et le soutien plus diffus, mais essentiel de la société toute entière. Il faut que tout le monde croie en l’importance du respect des droits de l’homme.
A.D. : Cette semaine, vous organisez un débat public sur le sujet « qu’est-ce qu’un Européen ? ». Pourquoi cette question est d’actualité aujourd’hui ?
C.L. : Oui ça paraît curieux de poser cette question qu’on aurait pu se poser depuis très longtemps, et que d’une certaine manière on s’est posé depuis très longtemps. Je sais qu’au Conseil de l’Europe, on a beaucoup travaillé sur l’identité européenne, la culture européenne etc. Mais je crois qu’aujourd’hui, il faut de nouveau, et avec clarté et fermeté s’interroger sur ce qu’est l’Europe et sur ce qu’est un Européen. Pourquoi ? Eh bien d’abord parce qu’il y a une question concernant les frontières de l’Europe. Et vous le savez il règne une certaine confusion en ce moment. Et vous avez par exemple un pays comme la Turquie pour lequel certaines personnes dénient le qualificatif d’ « européen ». Ça ne serait pas un pays européen malgré l’histoire, l’histoire de Constantinople, de Byzance, etc. Donc tracer les frontières de l’Europe, c’est déjà un problème. Et puis il y a une deuxième raison : s’interroger sur ce qu’est l’ « européanité », si on peut utiliser ce mot barbare. C’est que le projet européen, le projet de la construction européenne, et en particulier de l’Union européenne (mais la question se pose aussi pour le Conseil de l’Europe), le projet, les objectifs sont très liés à la notion d’européen. Pourquoi ? Parce qu’en réalité, quand après la guerre on s’est lancé dans cette construction européenne, on cherchait à unir les peuples européens. Pour quoi faire ? Eh bien pour défendre un modèle de société, pour défendre une histoire, pour défendre une culture, certains diront une civilisation. Et c’est à ce moment-là qu’il faut être relativement précis. Que met-on dans cette culture européenne ? Qu’est-ce qui et si précieux ? Quel est le contenu de cette culture ? Quelles sont les caractéristiques de cette civilisation ? Et est-ce que tout ça mérite que l’on travaille au Conseil de l’Europe, dans l’Union européenne, dans d’autres organisations si nécessaire ? Qu’est-ce qui justifie qu’on travaille pour cette Europe-là, pour cette « européanité »-là ? Ça donne son sens à notre combat. Donc c’est très important aujourd’hui de s’interroger sur ce que l’on entend par « européen ». On va être amené à préciser le contenu culturel, on va être amené à préciser quelle est cette histoire très longue, avec des hauts et des bas, qui nous amène aujourd’hui à dire : nous nous réunissons, nous consacrons des efforts, nous nous battons (entre guillemets, ce n’est pas la bataille militaire, c’est la bataille juridique, économique, etc) pour défendre l’Europe. Qu’est-ce qu’on veut défendre, fondamentalement ? Et qu’est-ce que l’Europe, dans son contenu, dans son identité ? Et qu’est-ce que c’est que d’être européen ? D’où le débat de ce soir.
A.D. : Et votre définition de l’Européen a-t-elle changé au cours des dernières années ? Et si c’est le cas, pourquoi ?
C.L. : Je ne dirais pas qu’elle a changé, mais au fur et à mesure de mes lectures, des contacts que j’ai la chance d’avoir avec des écrivains, des philosophes, des hommes politiques, j’ai l’impression d’y voir un peu plus clair, d’avoir plutôt approfondi certaines notions. Et je ne suis pas encore arrivée au bout, car c’est une question qui n’a pas de fin. On peut toujours s’interroger d’avantage, approfondir d’avantage les caractéristiques de la culture européenne, ou de la civilisation européenne. Je dirais grosso modo, et de façon très sommaire, que ce qui me semble caractériser la culture européenne, c’est son ancienneté. On a derrière nous, quand même, près de trois millénaires. Ce n’est pas rien. Ça veut dire que nous avons des racines très profondes : c’est différent dans d’autres pays. Il n’y a finalement que la Chine qui puisse rivaliser avec l’Europe. Nous avons aussi une culture qui a toujours été très ouverte. L’Européen est un être curieux : il est toujours allé regarder derrière le miroir. Et ça l’a conduit à prendre des idées, et parfois des pratiques artistiques, dans toutes les parties du monde. L’Europe a été une éponge, elle a tout absorbé. Elle est donc très ouverte. Quand on me parle de la « forteresse Europe », je bondis, parce que l’Europe n’a jamais été fermée, elle a toujours été ouverte. Et si elle se repliait sur elle-même, elle se dénaturerait complètement, elle perdrait complètement ce qui a été sa caractéristique au fil des siècles. Et puis, il y a des valeurs que l’Europe a mis du temps à affiner, à mettre en œuvre, notamment les valeurs humanistes qui, elles-mêmes, sont le fruit des religions du Livre, du Proche Orient. Elles sont toutes nées sur le même territoire. Ce n’est pas exactement le territoire européen, mais avec la Méditerranée, c’est tout ce bassin méditerranéen qui a été, en quelque sorte, imprégné par ces croyances issues des religions monothéistes, doublées de la Grèce antique, de la philosophie grecque, qui a un rôle très important dans la pensée européenne. Puis la pensée romaine, ou plutôt l’influence de l’Empire romain, ce gigantesque apport d’idées, de pratiques, qui aboutit à ces valeurs humanistes ont une vocation universelle. Mais qu’on le veuille ou non, le creuset dans lequel tout cela s’est affiné, s’est mélangé, c’est l’Europe. C’est, oui, le bassin méditerranéen, mais qui a été lui-même le foyer de la pensée européenne. Alors on pourrait parler pendant des heures sur les caractéristiques de cette culture européenne, cette identité européenne. En tout cas c’est une extrême richesse, et c’est cela qui nous permet de dire « nous les Européens », tout en reconnaissant, il faut être franc, que nous avons aussi fait des monstruosités. L’Europe a connu la barbarie. Les totalitarismes des années 30, en Allemagne, en Italie, en Russie avec Staline, enfin dans l’Union Soviétique à l’époque, en Espagne avec Franco : franchement, c’était des heures sombres. Mais après la Seconde Guerre Mondiale, l’Europe a réagi. Elle a réaffirmé ses valeurs fondamentales. En 1989, par la réunification de l’ensemble du continent, elle a en quelque sorte récupéré cette Europe centrale et orientale qui malheureusement avait vogué vers d’autres rives pendant plusieurs dizaines d’années. Et nous arrivons aujourd’hui à ce fait, que l’Europe a retrouvé les valeurs positives qu’elle avait élaboré au fil des siècles. Maintenant, à elle de les préserver au 21e siècle ! Alors la victoire n’est jamais certaine : ces valeurs, nous les avons perdues dans l’entre-deux guerres, évidemment pendant la Seconde Guerre Mondiale. Nous avons retrouvé les meilleurs acquis de la pensée européenne, maintenant à nous de les conserver. Et ce n’est pas facile.
A.D. : Mme Lalumière, merci beaucoup pour ces réflexions très intéressantes.
Translation - English Interview with Catherine Lalumière
Alun Drake : Catherine Lalumière, welcome to the Council of Europe.
Catherine Lalumière : Thank you.
A.D.: In your opinion, as a former Secretary-General of this organisation, how can the Council of Europe continue to play a pivotal role in the protection of human rights and democracy in Europe?
C.L.: That’s quite a question. Firstly, by firmly believing in the task that the Council was given when it was created in 1949 – to defend the most important of values: the respect of human rights and of each and every human being. The rights of women are, after all, just as important. The Council of Europe has worked tirelessly; the European Convention on Human Rights is a hugely important text, not only for Europeans, but also because of its influence on the rest of the world. So the key to success is to have absolute faith in this ideal and ensure that it is respected and passed on. However, other conditions must be met to ensure the success of the Council of Europe. Its member states, and society as a whole, must be mindful of the key role such humanist values play. The Council of Europe cannot perform miracles on its own. It needs to be supported by its member states, which must not turn a blind eye to violations, as is sometimes the case for political or geographical reasons. At times, member states refuse to face up to human rights abuses. In these cases, the Council of Europe sees its credibility diminish. The same can be said for society as a whole, absorbed by consumer goods and money, civil society itself is jeopardising the credibility of human rights. Therefore, success in the field of human rights and the success of the Council of Europe requires action from both the Council itself and its member states, as well as the more general support of society as a whole. Everyone must believe in the importance of respecting human rights.
A.D.: This week you are organising an open debate which asks the question “what is a European?”. Why is this such a pressing issue at the moment?
C.L.: Yes, it may seem odd to ask this question. Indeed, we could have asked it many years ago and, in a way, we have been asking this question for a long time already. I know that at the Council of Europe we’ve worked a lot on European identity, European culture and so on, but I believe that now we need something new. We must be very clear and direct in examining exactly what we mean by Europe and European. Why is this? Well, first of all, questions have been raised concerning the borders of Europe and there is confusion on this issue at the moment. Take a country like Turkey for example, which some people refuse to label as European despite its history: Constantinople, Byzantium and so on. So drawing the borders of Europe is a problem in itself. The second point is asking what we mean by ‘Europeanness’, if you’ll allow me to use such a term. The European project and its goals are very closely linked to the notion of what we mean by ‘European’, particularly regarding the European Union, although the same can be said for the Council of Europe. Why? Because after the war when we started to build today’s Europe, we were trying to bring European people together. To what end? To defend our social model, our history, our culture; some would even say our civilisation, and it’s here where we need to be very precise. What do we include in this European culture? What should we regard as precious? What does this culture involve? What are this civilisation’s characteristics? Is this cause worthy of all the work which is carried out at the Council of Europe, the European Union and other organisations? Do our notions of Europe justify the effort that we make on their behalf? This is what gives meaning to our struggle. Therefore, it is very important today that we ask ourselves what we mean by ‘European’. This will help us to identify what our culture is made up of. It will help us to understand this long history with all its ups and downs. It has led us to where we are today: united, committed and ready to fight to defend Europe (not in a literal sense of course, today’s battle is a legal and economic one). So what is it that we want to defend? What does Europe consist of? What is its identity? What does it mean to be European? These are the questions for this evening’s debate.
A.D.: Has your definition of European changed in the last few years? If so, why?
C.L.: I wouldn’t say that my definition has changed, but the more I read and the more I speak with the writers, philosophers and politicians that I’m lucky enough to know, the more I feel I have a clearer understanding and wider knowledge in certain areas. And I am not yet at the end, because it is a question that has no end. We can always go further in exploring the characteristics of European culture or of European civilisation. In a nutshell, I would say that what characterises European culture is its age – we can look back on nearly three millennia. That is quite something. That means that our culture is extremely deeply-rooted, which cannot be said in many other countries. In the end, only China can truly rival Europe in this respect. Also, our culture has always been a very open one. A European is a curious thing, always thinking outside the box. This has led him to transport ideas, and sometimes art, to all four corners of the globe. Europe is like a sponge: it absorbs everything. It is therefore very open. When I hear people talking about ‘Fortress Europe’ I can’t help but react. Europe has never been closed, it has always been open. If Europe were to turn in on itself it would become completely unrecognisable, it would lose the characteristic that it has kept for centuries. And then there are the values that Europe has spent time refining and updating, especially humanist values which in turn came from religious texts from the Middle East. These values all came from the same territory. It is not exactly European territory but subsequently all the lands of the Mediterranean were pervaded by the beliefs of the monotheistic religions, adding to the philosophy of Ancient Greece which plays a key role in European thought. Then there is Roman philosophy, or rather the Roman Empire; a huge wave of ideas and practices which gave such humanist values their universal influence. Like it or not, the melting-pot where all this was mixed and refined was Europe. The Mediterranean basin itself was the platform for European thought. We could speak for hours about the characteristics of our European culture and identity. It is clearly something to treasure and it is this that allows us to call ourselves ‘European’. However, we must remain candid and accept that we have also committed atrocities. Europe has seen immense savagery. The totalitarian regimes of the 1930’s in Germany, in Italy, in Russia under Stalin, well the Soviet Union at the time, in Spain under Franco – those really were dark days, but after the Second World War Europe responded. It reaffirmed these fundamental values. In 1989, through the reunification of the continent, the parts of Central and Eastern Europe which had unfortunately wandered far from the flock for several decades were welcomed back into the fold. This is where we stand today: Europe has recovered the positive values which it developed through the centuries and must now ensure they are safeguarded through the 21st century! Yet this victory should not be taken for granted: we lost these values in the period between the wars and obviously during the Second World War. We have recovered the best elements of our European philosophy, we must now make sure that we keep them. It will not be easy.
A.D.: Thank you for your insight, Ms. Lalumière.
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