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Project History (plus feedback!) features updated. Members are invited to use it!
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Valentina Pecchiar
Valentina Pecchiar  Identity Verified
Italy
English to Italian
+ ...
Do you really need more visibility? Dec 13, 2005

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
it becomes a compulsory feature if you want to remain competitive.


Hi Giovanni,

I share most of your (and others') apprehension about going public with the name of my clients or the specific projects I worked on. But I want to share another thought I've been having.

Just like you, I also feel I won't have the time to fill in properly my PH before next March or so. So, do I really need to enhance my visibility if in December 05 I'm unable to fit any extra job into my schedule until Spring 06?

If you're so busy as not to have the time to use yet another marketing tool, it looks to me you don't really need it, do you? So why worrying? One of your main prop must be your already proven professionalism and even if a prospect contacts you through the directory, you're very unlikely to be able to accept the job anyway. So why worrying?

*********************

Following the reasoning above, I am not sure PH is going to be a fair tool to show one's professionalism and experience: I feel its public features would be used mainly by people who are getting established and are still building their clients base. Nothing wrong with it, of course. But then the directory listing will be somehow unbalanced.

From the point of view of an outsourcer looking for a translator and browsing the directory, how come people claiming 10-year experience have just a couple of projects compoleted (which IMHO looks even worse in the directory than no project at all), and "newcomers" have a long list of jobs and positive comments? Right, outsourcers are likely to be able to make the same reasoning we are putting forth here but will he/she take the time to think about it, or will they just take the listing at its face value?

FWIW, I am with Larissa, tinageta and Susana:

I think this may be a good [and Valentina adds: as well as very useful and well-organized] individual feature which people can use - if they like - but they should not be forced into it and, therefore, this list should not appear in the directory, but should be available only from one's profile.


[Edited at 2005-12-13 10:03]


 
Natalya Zelikova
Natalya Zelikova  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 19:22
English to Russian
+ ...
PH and the Directory Dec 13, 2005

I think I am missing something in explanation of those members who say they do not have time to maintain updated PH.
So far the directory displays members by their KudoZ rating, and personally I can hardly find the time to answer each and every KudoZ to maintain my rating in the directory. But entering my projects into PH (once/twice a week or even once/twice a month in case of larger projects) obviously takes me less time than KudoZ...
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I think I am missing something in explanation of those members who say they do not have time to maintain updated PH.
So far the directory displays members by their KudoZ rating, and personally I can hardly find the time to answer each and every KudoZ to maintain my rating in the directory. But entering my projects into PH (once/twice a week or even once/twice a month in case of larger projects) obviously takes me less time than KudoZ
So I can understand other arguments against PH, but don’t feel very comfortable with this one.

I have enjoyed participating in KudoZ earlier, but now I consider PH (leaving aside other pros and cons of this feature) to be an alternative way of confirming my expertise in certain fields, having no more time for active participation in KudoZ.
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:22
Member (2004)
English to Italian
KudoZ vs PH Dec 13, 2005

Natalya Zelikova wrote:

I think I am missing something in explanation of those members who say they do not have time to maintain updated PH.
So far the directory displays members by their KudoZ rating, and personally I can hardly find the time to answer each and every KudoZ to maintain my rating in the directory. But entering my projects into PH (once/twice a week or even once/twice a month in case of larger projects) obviously takes me less time than KudoZ
So I can understand other arguments against PH, but don’t feel very comfortable with this one.

I have enjoyed participating in KudoZ earlier, but now I consider PH (leaving aside other pros and cons of this feature) to be an alternative way of confirming my expertise in certain fields, having no more time for active participation in KudoZ.


To have KudoZ as a discriminatory factor is, in my opinion, fair because partecipating to the KudoZ game is a way of giving back to the site and help colleagues. Therefore is right to have the people with most KudoZ points at the top. The PH as discriminatory factor is unfair since not everybody has the time to implement it and the feedback depends on the willingness of the outsourcers to give it. If I will be 'forced' to implement the PH to remain competitive, I will have less time to help colleagues and to take part in the KudoZ game. I understand the need of selection, but a selection based on competitiveness and e-bay style feedback is not the way to go.

Giovanni


 
Walter Landesman
Walter Landesman  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 15:22
English to Spanish
+ ...
A matter of time Dec 13, 2005

I really do not share nor understand this argument. You don`t need "to have time" to be neat & to organize your work. And PH is helping in this task.
You can have your PH just for yourseel, as a sort of template agenda where you include current and past projects, payments due, invoices cancelled, and every other details you might consider apropiated. Then you decide if and which of the projects you`re going to ask outsourcers for corroboration and if and which are going to go public.
... See more
I really do not share nor understand this argument. You don`t need "to have time" to be neat & to organize your work. And PH is helping in this task.
You can have your PH just for yourseel, as a sort of template agenda where you include current and past projects, payments due, invoices cancelled, and every other details you might consider apropiated. Then you decide if and which of the projects you`re going to ask outsourcers for corroboration and if and which are going to go public.

All in all, I consider this a very useful organizing tool.

Walter:)
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Nikki Graham
Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:22
Spanish to English
Why do it twice? Dec 13, 2005

Walter Landesman wrote:

I really do not share nor understand this argument. You don`t need "to have time" to be neat & to organize your work. And PH is helping in this task.
You can have your PH just for yourseel, as a sort of template agenda where you include current and past projects, payments due, invoices cancelled, and every other details you might consider apropiated. Then you decide if and which of the projects you`re going to ask outsourcers for corroboration and if and which are going to go public.

All in all, I consider this a very useful organizing tool.

Walter:)


Walter, I imagine that the vast majority of us already have records of the projects we have done, how many words, how much per word, when it was billed, when it's due and whether it's been paid. Most of my records have to be kept for tax purposes anyway. Why would I want to copy it all onto proz when it is all nicely organised how I like it already?

P.S. I have also already mentioned in my profile those projects or areas of expertise I wish to highlight.

[Edited at 2005-12-13 12:09]


 
Natalya Zelikova
Natalya Zelikova  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 19:22
English to Russian
+ ...
KudoZ & PH Dec 13, 2005

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

To have KudoZ as a discriminatory factor is, in my opinion, fair because partecipating to the KudoZ game is a way of giving back to the site and help colleagues.

I believe the idea behind this is slightly different: the directory is created for outsourcers, and potential outsourcer doesn’t care about how I am helping my colleagues, number of my KudoZ points show my expertise in a certain field for him.
But the point is that I probably would like to have an alternative (less time consuming) way to confirm my specializations...

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

The PH as discriminatory factor is unfair since not everybody has the time to implement it and the feedback depends on the willingness of the outsourcers to give it.

The same (time) is about KudoZ… Still it is considered «fair».

If I will be 'forced' to implement the PH to remain competitive...

None of them (nor KudoZ neither PH) is obligatory, but still KudoZ IS indirectly obligatory and more influential in terms of directory rating. So why PH shouldn’t be? Anyone can use what he/she likes.
I am already "forced" to participate in KudoZ to stay competitive Still I do not have objections to the system, I just want to have an alternative.


 
Walter Landesman
Walter Landesman  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 15:22
English to Spanish
+ ...
Corroboration vs. references Dec 13, 2005

I think we can compare corroboration from outsources to references form clientes.

References are in the CV, but if somebody wants to be sure, he/she has to contact the original client, if his/her data are available. On the other hand, corroboration is there, it has already been corroborated by the outsourcer/client through Proz.

Actually, both work the same, don`t they?

Walter


 
Jaroslaw Michalak
Jaroslaw Michalak  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 19:22
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER
One small suggestion... Dec 16, 2005

It would be helpful if the outsourcer BB search on the PH entry page supplies not only the number, but also the link to the BB. There are many agencies with similar names and right now it is hard to confirm the correct choice.

 
Dinny
Dinny  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 20:22
Italian to Danish
+ ...
QUESTION TO SITE STAFF: Where and to whom is the request sent? Dec 17, 2005

As mentioned, I have requested feedback only from a couple of agencies. I have informed the relevant PMs about this new feature and that they would receive a request for feedback. I have received confirmation that whenever such a request would arrive they would be happy to give positive feedback on my work.

2 weeks have passed and nothing has happened. No request for feedback has ever reached the PMs in question.

Now, where is this request sent to? In a big agency wit
... See more
As mentioned, I have requested feedback only from a couple of agencies. I have informed the relevant PMs about this new feature and that they would receive a request for feedback. I have received confirmation that whenever such a request would arrive they would be happy to give positive feedback on my work.

2 weeks have passed and nothing has happened. No request for feedback has ever reached the PMs in question.

Now, where is this request sent to? In a big agency with 15-20 PMs nobody will take the time to follow-up on such a request if it's sent to the agency's general mail address. I miss a field for insertion of the name of the Project Manager.

Dinny
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Jaroslaw Michalak
Jaroslaw Michalak  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 19:22
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER
PM e-mail and resend request Dec 17, 2005

I have just seen that Dinny has suggested a feature I wanted to propose as well.

Specifying the address to which the confirmation request is sent is a must. However, it might be limited to the outsourcer's domain, otherwise it might be abused.

Moreover, it would be nice to have a "resend" button, which could be used if the confirmation request is lost for some reason.

[Edited at 2005-12-17 11:47]


 
Roman Bulkiewicz
Roman Bulkiewicz  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:22
Member (2004)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
Please keep the directory clean and neat! :) Dec 17, 2005

Henry and staff,

First, thank you for this new feature. I have felt long time that something like that was needed. I might have imagined it somewhat differently, but details are not so important and you can't suit everybody's wishes anyway.

But I have to join those who do NOT want it in the directory. The reasons have been described above; let me put it again from my own perspective.

Why is it OK in the profile?
Because the more marketing tools you g
... See more
Henry and staff,

First, thank you for this new feature. I have felt long time that something like that was needed. I might have imagined it somewhat differently, but details are not so important and you can't suit everybody's wishes anyway.

But I have to join those who do NOT want it in the directory. The reasons have been described above; let me put it again from my own perspective.

Why is it OK in the profile?
Because the more marketing tools you give us the better, and it's up to everyone which ones to use, and in what ways. Some will not use this PH feature at all and rely on CV only, and that's fine. Others will track every single project, and that's fine too. My own idea is that I can put some of my major project there, and some regular work (like "XXX thousand words in Nuclear Engineering over 5 years") -- with corroboration/feedback for each one (that's the most important part!). And no online accounting for me, surely. I hope it will work for me, and it's my own responsibility and risk. A client will open the profiles and make his/her choise.

Why is it bad in the directory?
Because once you put some numerical value against one's name in a list, it becomes a grade. Whether you want it or not, it will be perceived as some kind of measure of one's experience, or professionalism or whatever (while in fact it is no measure at all, thus it's misleading). It will be a factor in deciding whether your profile will be ever opened or not (and an arbitrary one, in no way related to your professional values). As a result, to stay competitive (at ProZ), I'm afraid we may find ourselves drawn into some meaningless PH race, pushed into some stupid and time-eating activities of logging every small project years backward and harrassing our clients with endless requests to confirm our achievements in long-forgotten projects... Certainly I do not appreciate such a prospect.

Please please keep the directory clean.

Roman
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Roman Bulkiewicz
Roman Bulkiewicz  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:22
Member (2004)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
PH vs KudoZ Dec 17, 2005

Natalya,

Surely one may have something to say about KudoZ, but we are discussing a new feature here, so people are eager so have their word heard while it is still "hot".

Anyway, I think KudoZ are seen by most us as a part of the game that "has always been here". It seems that, in this thread, I am about the only one (except Henry, of course) who may remember the times when it was not...
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Natalya,

Surely one may have something to say about KudoZ, but we are discussing a new feature here, so people are eager so have their word heard while it is still "hot".

Anyway, I think KudoZ are seen by most us as a part of the game that "has always been here". It seems that, in this thread, I am about the only one (except Henry, of course) who may remember the times when it was not ...but I don't. (Probably because I, to my shame and regret, haven't paid much attention to my ProZ membership until a year or two ago

Also, KudoZ put you up in the directory, true, and it's important -- though you don't have to be the first one, and you need pretty few of them to get into the first screen (not even page). But if the prospective client doesn't know what KudoZ are, he will not base his judgement on them. And once he does know, he will not rely on them too much, because he will realize they are just a score in a game.

On the other hand, The Number of Projects in This Particular Field sounds like a weighty argument and may very easily delude someone who is not privy to the ProZ particulars.

Natalya Zelikova wrote:

The same (time) is about KudoZ… Still it is considered «fair».
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Vito Smolej
Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 19:22
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Why would I want to copy it all onto proz when it is all nicely organised how I like it already? Dec 19, 2005

...Because you would like the others to see it. Visibility, that's all. Courtesy of Henry.

I think it is a good idea. No need for us to feel paranoid. Rather think positive and show/prove your quality, if you feel/need to.

Regards

smo


 
Nikki Graham
Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:22
Spanish to English
Payment info visible? I don't think so. Dec 19, 2005

Vito Smolej wrote:

...Because you would like the others to see it. Visibility, that's all. Courtesy of Henry.

I think it is a good idea. No need for us to feel paranoid. Rather think positive and show/prove your quality, if you feel/need to.

Regards

smo


Please do not misquote me. I was referring specifically to the idea of using the "project history" to detail no. of words, how much per word, payments, etc., which, frankly, is my business only and would not be visible. In other words, as I do this already, the project history is not a useful tool as far as I'm concerned for that aspect.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:22
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Questions to Nikki Dec 20, 2005

Nikki Graham wrote:
In other words, as I do this already, the project history is not a useful tool as far as I'm concerned for that aspect.

Hi Nikki, thanks for posting. I am wondering whether we should expand upon the personal organization aspects of the function. In your case, as someone who already keeps track elsewhere (what system do you use?), could our project history system be made into a useful feature for you? Would there be an advantage to the system being web-based? Would you be interested in such features as invoice generation, etc.?


 
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