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Pro or non-pro? That is the question
Thread poster: matt robinson
matt robinson
matt robinson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 08:33
Member (2010)
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
But what is the point? Jul 19, 2015

Thanks for the clarification, Enrique, but I for one was already aware of the guidelines. Perhaps my initial question was a little vague. What I really want to know is why this classification exists on the site. It seems that a lot of questions requiring a facile answer are met with scorn, left unanswered by the majority, or otherwise answered with a reminder that a 5-second search pulls up a thousand results through any search engine. I feel this is sufficient reprimand for time-wasters, or the... See more
Thanks for the clarification, Enrique, but I for one was already aware of the guidelines. Perhaps my initial question was a little vague. What I really want to know is why this classification exists on the site. It seems that a lot of questions requiring a facile answer are met with scorn, left unanswered by the majority, or otherwise answered with a reminder that a 5-second search pulls up a thousand results through any search engine. I feel this is sufficient reprimand for time-wasters, or the inexperienced using ProZ as their first-choice dictionary.
If the pro v. non-pro idea was designed to perform this function, then I think it has failed, but I have racked my brains to come up with another useful purpose, and I cannot.
I also have a problem with the idea of 'any bilingual person without the use of a dictionary'. I have two bilingual children who are both in their teens, and they naturally have entire lexical sets missing from their vocabularies. Similarly, both these children were born in Spain (my L2), and thus I have a lexical set regarding pregnancy and birth in the Spanish language which goes much further than my English language set for the same area. My point is that even with bilinguals the circumstances leading to their ability to use two languages competently will be vastly different, and what is your common knowledge will be my question on proZ (following some personal research, of course)!

[Edited at 2015-07-19 10:28 GMT]
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Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 08:33
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
A lot of questions are far more subtle than they seem Jul 19, 2015

Time and time again, one sees questions about a common expression used in an unusual context, adding a whole new dimension.

Wordplay, taking a cliché literally for a change, and discussions of an extra layer of meaning.

Most bilinguals, and of course the professional asker, know what the expression normally means, and what the normal equivalent would be in the target language. In an unusual context, how to transfer the allusion or the extra underlying meaning to the tr
... See more
Time and time again, one sees questions about a common expression used in an unusual context, adding a whole new dimension.

Wordplay, taking a cliché literally for a change, and discussions of an extra layer of meaning.

Most bilinguals, and of course the professional asker, know what the expression normally means, and what the normal equivalent would be in the target language. In an unusual context, how to transfer the allusion or the extra underlying meaning to the translation is very much a PRO-question.

This sort of situation is one of the things we humans do that machine translation can't, and many non-professionals don't understand. (But they don't understand an over-literal translation as intended either!)

I agree with writeaway - I vote for abolishing the distinction too.
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matt robinson
matt robinson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 08:33
Member (2010)
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Justification? Jul 19, 2015

I agree, Christine.
I was expecting at least some rationale for inclusion from the site admin.
I have to conclude that someone came up with the distinction and/or voting procedure because it was technically possible to include it on the website.


 
Erik Freitag
Erik Freitag  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 08:33
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Legacy Jul 19, 2015

I remember an explanation given in a similar discussion a long time ago. It was said that in the infancy of proz, there would have been quite a lot of questions of the "How do I say 'I love you' in French?" kind being asked by people who nowadays probably rather spend their time on facebook etc.

I believe that the non-pro category was invented for this kind of questions, of which I don't see many at all (and never have in the nearly 10 years I'm using proz).

So I agree:
... See more
I remember an explanation given in a similar discussion a long time ago. It was said that in the infancy of proz, there would have been quite a lot of questions of the "How do I say 'I love you' in French?" kind being asked by people who nowadays probably rather spend their time on facebook etc.

I believe that the non-pro category was invented for this kind of questions, of which I don't see many at all (and never have in the nearly 10 years I'm using proz).

So I agree: We could well do without this distinction.
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neilmac
neilmac
Spain
Local time: 08:33
Spanish to English
+ ...
What we need is... Jul 21, 2015

A "vote to leave the query PRO as posted by the asker" option.

 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:33
Spanish to English
+ ...
The distinction should be maintained, but... Jul 21, 2015

Eliminating the distinction between "Pro" and "non-Pro" questions would open the floodgates not only for Askers to post all kinds of queries that can be answered by either consulting dictionaries or conducting a quick online search, but for the "point-hunters" among us to rack up inflated numbers and thus fundamentally compromise the utility of the directories (which is far from a perfect system to begin with).

On the other hand, I have noticed the same tendency as Neilmac within t
... See more
Eliminating the distinction between "Pro" and "non-Pro" questions would open the floodgates not only for Askers to post all kinds of queries that can be answered by either consulting dictionaries or conducting a quick online search, but for the "point-hunters" among us to rack up inflated numbers and thus fundamentally compromise the utility of the directories (which is far from a perfect system to begin with).

On the other hand, I have noticed the same tendency as Neilmac within the Spanish-to-English pair (i.e., to vote "non-Pro" any posted term that does not qualify as fiendishly difficult). I find this irritating at times, but I would rather live with that than see Kudoz turn into a forum that is taken over by an unholy alliance of beginners, wannabes, never-gonna-bes, and the incorrigibly lazy on the one hand, and desperate point-hunters on the other.



[Edited at 2015-07-21 16:36 GMT]
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writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
But this is already the case Jul 21, 2015

Robert Forstag wrote:


... Askers to post all kinds of queries that can be answered by consulting dictionaries or conducting a quick online search, but would enable the "point-hunters" among us to rack up inflated numbers ...

... Kudoz turn into a forum that is taken over by an unholy alliance of beginners and the incorrigibly lazy on the one hand, and desperate point-hunters on the other.


Imo you have just described Kudoz as it already is.
I feel that taking away the distinction between pro and non-pro, which is abused to the hilt in both directions, would just help calm all those ruffled feathers and help stop people continuing with this obsession about pro/non-pro questions.


 
philgoddard
philgoddard
United States
German to English
+ ...
I think it's a useful feature. Jul 21, 2015

It's a simple, one-click way of saying either:

1. You're supposed to research this yourself first, and you clearly haven't bothered.
or
2. You're translating out of your mother tongue when you shouldn't be, and asking a question that a native speaker of the target language would have no difficulty with.

Also, don't forget that askers can classify their own questions as non-pro. This is a simple way of saying 'Sorry, I know this is probably easy, but I'm no
... See more
It's a simple, one-click way of saying either:

1. You're supposed to research this yourself first, and you clearly haven't bothered.
or
2. You're translating out of your mother tongue when you shouldn't be, and asking a question that a native speaker of the target language would have no difficulty with.

Also, don't forget that askers can classify their own questions as non-pro. This is a simple way of saying 'Sorry, I know this is probably easy, but I'm not sure of the answer".


[Edited at 2015-07-21 15:40 GMT]
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Lancashireman
Lancashireman  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:33
German to English
Also a useful way... Aug 27, 2015

... of letting the asker know that they have closed the question in an unprofessional manner.

 
neilmac
neilmac
Spain
Local time: 08:33
Spanish to English
+ ...
Mea culpa Aug 29, 2015

writeaway wrote:
Sadly many people are extremely concerned about their "Proz" image and get into an instant huff if one of their questions (asked or answered) is voted 'non-pro' even though it just means the question is easy.


I'm afraid I'm one of the guilty parties and do tend to take criticism of my work - and that includes kudoz queries - personally. In fact it's a family trait my daughter and I share! Her mum calls it the "wonderhuff"!


 
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