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Agencies that price you out of the market
Thread poster: Tom in London
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:02
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Dec 9, 2020

Do you ever suspect that an agency has loaded so much on top of your price that they lost you the job?

An Italian university professor recently asked me to bid for a job via a particular agency (because only registered agencies are eligible to bid for university work). I therefore agreed a price with the agency. I had no idea how much the agency's bid price would be to the university.

A while later the prof. told me I didn't get the job because the agency's bid was far
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Do you ever suspect that an agency has loaded so much on top of your price that they lost you the job?

An Italian university professor recently asked me to bid for a job via a particular agency (because only registered agencies are eligible to bid for university work). I therefore agreed a price with the agency. I had no idea how much the agency's bid price would be to the university.

A while later the prof. told me I didn't get the job because the agency's bid was far higher than any of the others. He told me the amount: more than twice what I had agreed with the agency!

That was not the first time that I suspect an agency priced me out of a market.

Have you ever had the same suspicion?

[Edited at 2020-12-09 09:38 GMT]
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Emanuele Vacca
Sanjin Grandić
philgoddard
Kerby Magophy
Adieu
 
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
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Registered agencies have very high business costs. Dec 9, 2020

Not surprise at all they charge at least double your price in order to cover all their numerous costs.

I really don’t understand the question. What you describe is expected of agencies to do, that’s why they’re agencies. What is more common though is that they bring the price down in order to compete with other agencies, and then ask you to do the same.

Personally I don’t participate in any kind of potential projects where l’m helping an agency win the job. T
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Not surprise at all they charge at least double your price in order to cover all their numerous costs.

I really don’t understand the question. What you describe is expected of agencies to do, that’s why they’re agencies. What is more common though is that they bring the price down in order to compete with other agencies, and then ask you to do the same.

Personally I don’t participate in any kind of potential projects where l’m helping an agency win the job. They should be capable of winning a job without me. So maybe I’m not relevant to comment on this.
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Angie Garbarino
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:02
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
So they get it wrong Dec 9, 2020

Lingua 5B wrote:

Not surprise at all they charge at least double your price in order to cover all their numerous costs



The job in question was won by another agency. So some agencies are perfectly able to load their own costs + profit on top of the translator's price, and still win the job.


Viviane Marx
 
Samuel Murray
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Netherlands
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English to Afrikaans
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@Tom Dec 9, 2020

Tom in London wrote:
Do you ever suspect that an agency has loaded so much on top of your price that they lost you the job?


I don't know if agencies who determine their rate *after* consulting the translator do so by adding a percentage or by adding a fixed amount, but I think that that is a relevant question. I suspect many such agencies simply add a percentage (e.g. 75% or 100% or 125% or suchlike), as it's easier to calculate in a hurry.

Most of the agencies that I work for (about two thirds of them) determine their own rate *before* they consult me (and even quote that rate to the client before they've even spoken to any translator), so their cut is whatever remains. This explains why such agencies are so eager for translators to reduce their rates.

Obviously such agencies have a certain threshold below which the job becomes unprofitable for them, and if you don't reduce your rate, they either find a cheaper translator or tell the client "sorry, none of our translators are available right now". (Not all such agencies are willing to use a cheaper translator -- business-smart agencies would rather say "no" to a job and later get another opportunity to work for that client than say "yes" to the job and lose the client forever after that one job.)

As to your question, no, I don't think an agency has ever priced me out of the market -- the agencies that I work for who consult me about my rate before quoting the client typically have an idea of what a fair rate is anyway, and would have prepared the client in advance that the quote is likely to be in the region of such and such. Though I suppose it could happen.

Your situation may have been a bit more unique (more unique... gasp!) because it was a tendering process, i.e. your agency did not have the freedom to negotiate with the client: their bid is their bid. Also, there is a belief that universities are loaded.

[Edited at 2020-12-09 10:33 GMT]


Stanislaw Czech, MCIL CL
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:02
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
@ Samuel Dec 9, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:

Most of the agencies that I work for (about two thirds of them) determine their own rate *before* they consult me .......This explains why such agencies are so eager for translators to reduce their rates.


Interesting thoughts, Samuel, and my experience with agencies is similar to yours - particularly with the agencies that know me well, and know my rate.

In the specific case to which I was referring at the top of this thread, I had never worked before with that agency. I simply quoted them my normal rate and they didn't query it.

But the professor, having seen all the bids, was shocked by how much that particular agency was asking for. So in my opinion the agency was either incompetent (because it failed to establish a realistic bid price) or it simply didn't want to take on the job. The loser was me - through no fault of my own.



[Edited at 2020-12-09 10:43 GMT]


 
Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei
Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei  Identity Verified
Ghana
Local time: 12:02
Japanese to English
Not so fast, Tom Dec 9, 2020

Tom in London wrote:
The job in question was won by another agency. So some agencies are perfectly able to load their own costs + profit on top of the translator's price, and still win the job.

Just because they won the job doesn't mean they're going to do a good job of it. It doesn't even mean the agency that won the job is going to do the job at all.


Stanislaw Czech, MCIL CL
Adieu
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:02
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Ah, but Dec 9, 2020

Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei wrote:

Tom in London wrote:
The job in question was won by another agency. So some agencies are perfectly able to load their own costs + profit on top of the translator's price, and still win the job.

Just because they won the job doesn't mean they're going to do a good job of it. It doesn't even mean the agency that won the job is going to do the job at all.


Ah, but I know the professor and I know what the job was. He would not accept a bid from an incompetent agency, nor from an agency that wasn't even going to do the job!

Let me add: having more recently had a similar experience with another agency and another job, it got me thinking about how many jobs I may have lost in the past because the agency quoted a price to the end client that was much too high.

(And by the way, that professor subsequently "invented" a different way of commissioning translations from me by setting up a company affiliated to the university, and hiring me through that company - so all's well than ends well, in that particular case).



[Edited at 2020-12-09 10:59 GMT]


Katya Kesten
 
Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Romanian to English
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Very odd Dec 9, 2020

I've never had any specific suspicions that something similar has happened to me, and I know that competitive bidding is all part of the rough and tumble of business, but my observation would be that the final outcome in your case - the fact that you were invited to bid but didn't get the work - makes a bit of a mockery of the principle of only going through agencies and not hiring freelancers directly, if pricing is such an issue for them. What happened here, in essence, was that they insisted ... See more
I've never had any specific suspicions that something similar has happened to me, and I know that competitive bidding is all part of the rough and tumble of business, but my observation would be that the final outcome in your case - the fact that you were invited to bid but didn't get the work - makes a bit of a mockery of the principle of only going through agencies and not hiring freelancers directly, if pricing is such an issue for them. What happened here, in essence, was that they insisted on going through a middleman who naturally added a commission, and then didn't like the commission. Their insistence defeats the object of minimising cost, which seems to outweigh other criteria in their eyes, and if standards are the reason for it, an agency is only as good as the best translators and proofreaders available to it, and they could be hired directly by the university. For that reason, I would question why agencies are considered to be an essential link in this supply chain.

One also has to ask the question of why the professor had a particular agency in mind, it smacks a little of favouritism and possibly worse! And that makes it all the stranger that the agency he recommended wasn't chosen.
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:02
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Italian to English
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Misreading Dec 9, 2020

I probably didn't make myself clear in my original post (although I thought I had).

1. The professor did NOT have a particular agency in mind
2. The university rules required him to invite competitive bids
3. The university rules do not allow professors to recruit their own favourite translators (although in my case, since the professor knows me and knows my work, he invented an alternative way of hiring me)

I hope that's clear now.

The general
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I probably didn't make myself clear in my original post (although I thought I had).

1. The professor did NOT have a particular agency in mind
2. The university rules required him to invite competitive bids
3. The university rules do not allow professors to recruit their own favourite translators (although in my case, since the professor knows me and knows my work, he invented an alternative way of hiring me)

I hope that's clear now.

The general point of my topic is that some agencies overload the cost far too much, and thereby cause the translator to lose the job.
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Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:02
German to English
Agencies also err in the other direction Dec 9, 2020

It's incredibly rare for me to get any information about the results of a bidding process other than the fact that at least one unnamed competitor submitted a lower bid. Because of that fact, I assume that the few cases where I have become aware that I was underbid by an agency only represent the tip of the iceberg. That means you also have agencies messing things up by sending in bids so low they're underbidding freelancers with negligible overhead.

And, at least in Germany, transl
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It's incredibly rare for me to get any information about the results of a bidding process other than the fact that at least one unnamed competitor submitted a lower bid. Because of that fact, I assume that the few cases where I have become aware that I was underbid by an agency only represent the tip of the iceberg. That means you also have agencies messing things up by sending in bids so low they're underbidding freelancers with negligible overhead.

And, at least in Germany, translation is a field where it's apparently not too hard for interested clients to classify the service in such a way that they can accept a higher-priced bid without too much of an administrative headache.

I also don't know how big the category of "registered agencies" is, but restricting the bidding practice to a limited group of outsourcers who probably also gradually end up with a lot of inside information and connections and serve as semi-official gatekeepers in cases like this seems like a very counter-productive way to keep costs down and quality up through competitive bidding. Good that your professor found a way to game the system in the spirit of its actual purpose.
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Mervyn Henderson (X)
Peter Shortall
Stanislaw Czech, MCIL CL
 
Peter Shortall
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The general and the particular Dec 9, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

I probably didn't make myself clear in my original post (although I thought I had).

1. The professor did NOT have a particular agency in mind


Oh, I see. It was "asked me to bid for a job via a particular agency" that threw me. So you meant *any* particular agency, as opposed to a particular particular one, if I can put it that way!


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
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Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
By the way... Dec 9, 2020

Michael Wetzel wrote:

..... restricting the bidding practice to a limited group of outsourcers who probably also gradually end up with a lot of inside information and connections and serve as semi-official gatekeepers in cases like this seems like a very counter-productive way to keep costs down and quality up through competitive bidding.


That's simply the Italian university applying the EU rules on tender bid contests - as all other EU universities are required to do. As an architect (which I also am) I can tell you that public authorities all over Europe are required, by the rules, to form restricted lists of "approved contractors". Only those contractors are eligible to bid for work that comes up. So architects who are not able to get on to an "approved list" don't ever get to participate in design contests.

These rules apply to all fields of activity so far as public institutions within the EU are concerned. One of many things that are wrong with the EU.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:02
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
LEt me clarify Dec 9, 2020

Peter Shortall wrote:

It was "asked me to bid for a job via a particular agency" that threw me. So you meant *any* particular agency, as opposed to a particular particular one, if I can put it that way!


To clarify further: he told me that the only way for me to get this work was to apply for it via an agency that was authorised to to university work. I found the agency. Unfortunately I chose the wrong one


Mervyn Henderson (X)
Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei
 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
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It's the system, not the agency Dec 9, 2020

So really it's the system that's at fault here. I have to say it also drives me ******* nuts. And it's not just the public sector or the EU, Tom. Large companies too.

The agency is perhaps being a little greedy with a 100% markup, but then they don't know you from Adam. They have no idea how much aftercare your work will require.


Mervyn Henderson (X)
Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei
Katya Kesten
 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:02
German to English
I don't know how to square my experience with your insider's knowledge ... Dec 9, 2020

I don't know if it's a matter of staying below thresholds for certain requirements or classifying my work as a creative service (like advertising - that was my understanding of one explanation), I've never really asked in detail and never fully understood the occasional explanation offered ... However, I know a lot of the projects I bid on just require them to get (or possibly only request) three bids and that's enough and they have no problem with bids from freelancers. Some of those projects a... See more
I don't know if it's a matter of staying below thresholds for certain requirements or classifying my work as a creative service (like advertising - that was my understanding of one explanation), I've never really asked in detail and never fully understood the occasional explanation offered ... However, I know a lot of the projects I bid on just require them to get (or possibly only request) three bids and that's enough and they have no problem with bids from freelancers. Some of those projects are for universities. I accept that what you are saying is a fact, but I also know that what I am saying is true from firsthand experience.

Maybe it's like the LSP norm where some people have read all kinds of things into the EU directive that it doesn't actually require.

And there certainly is an epidemic of wasting public funds by incentivizing decision-makers to accept recklessly underpriced bids in Germany (our Berlin airport just opened 9 years late and billions of euros over budget, due to all kinds of gross negligence, but lowball bidding processes are sure to have played a large role).
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