alliage qui paraît sensiblement le même que

English translation: an alloy which appears to be the same as

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:alliage qui paraît sensiblement le même que
English translation:an alloy which appears to be the same as
Entered by: Christopher Crockett

18:11 Mar 27, 2017
French to English translations [PRO]
Tech/Engineering - Metallurgy / Casting / ancient artefact
French term or phrase: alliage qui paraît sensiblement le même que
Hello!
DOC: 1907 Museum catalog of ancient Egyptian mirrors. Catalog entry.
CONTEXT: 44023. Miroir. - Bronze. - Technique. Le disque est fondu ou, plus vraisemblablement, découpé dans une feuille de bronze d'un ***alliage qui paraît sensiblement le même que*** celui du manche.
ATTEMPT: The disk is cast or, more likely, cut from a bronze sheet of an alloy which looks/seems roughly/distinctly/noticeably the same as that of the handle.
ISSUE: I can't figure out which it means here. Can someone else tell?
Thanks in advance!
angela3thomas
United States
an alloy which appears to be the same as
Explanation:
"The disk is cast or, more likely, cut from a sheet of bronze which appears to be of the same alloy as that from which the handle was made.

Though he's not had the benefit of a spectrographic analysis to prove it, I suppose that Benediti is assuming that both the mirror and the handle are from the same bronze alloy* --presumably from the color (or colour) of both the bare bronze itself (wherever/if it may be seen on both elements) and that of the patina.

Mixing up batches of bronze was probably far from an exact science, so there would inevitably be variations in the alloy content from batch to batch; and we have seen in earlier descriptions that certain alloys are more prone to "excessive" oxidation, which manifests itself as occasional spots of thicker encrustations (rather than as merely a smooth patina).

The assumption that both parts of the thing were made of bronze of identical alloy contents is, of course, a quite reasonable one --it is highly unlikely that the smith would mix up two separate batches of copper and tin to fabricate both elements of a single (compound) object.

It is not clear to me why he believes that the mirror was "cut from a sheet" (not a "leaf") rather than merely cast in a round mold (which could then be further smoothed through abrasion. Perhaps there are irregularities in the circle --trimming marks-- which suggest that this was the way the thing was formed. In any event, since he doesn't give his reasons for this assumption, the hapless translator is not obligated to speculate on what those reasons might have been.

*Tony is quite right that all bronze is an alloy; however, I believe that the use of "bronze alloy" here is not redundant, since it refers to the *specific* "alloy content" i.e., the relative amounts of copper, tin, etc. which made up the specific bronze alloy in question. (We can't use "allodial" because than word means somthing else.)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2017-03-28 13:24:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A bit of a change for clarification purposes seems necessary:

"The disk is cast or, more likely, [it] *was* cut from a sheet of bronze which appears to be of the same alloy as that from which the handle was made."
Selected response from:

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 19:44
Grading comment
Thanks to all who gave feedback!
3 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3that seems approximately the same as
Tony M
5 +1an alloy which appears to be the same as
Christopher Crockett


  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
qui paraît sensiblement le même que
that seems approximately the same as


Explanation:
From the use of 'paraît' is would suggest 'approximately' — 'as far as we can tell'; i.e. they probbaly haven't actually had a full scientific analysis done.

Do note that your proposed translation is headed for an error!

It is not really 'cut from a bronze sheet of an alloy...', but more accurately 'cut from a sheet of bronze' ('feuille' suggests fairly thin sheet, cf. 'foil') 'of an alloy that appears...' — bronze is inherently an alloy, and here, it seems to be substantiallly the same alloy as that used for the handle.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 heures (2017-03-28 05:14:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As Nikki has suggested, it is almost certainly close than merely 'approximately'; a possible solution here might be 'ostensibly similar to...' — where the 'ostensibly' conveys something of the sentiment of 'sensiblement'.

Tony M
France
Local time: 00:44
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 101

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: fairly/quite similar to. Arguably a little more than "approximately", don't you think?
2 hrs
  -> Thanks, Nikki! Probably, yes — I suspect it is just they are pretty sure, but don't want to stick their necks out, as it hasn't actually been analysed. In another context, I might have said 'materially similar to' or 'ostensibly similar to'

agree  Daryo: 'ostensibly similar to'
11 hrs
  -> Merci, Daryo !

agree  Christopher Crockett: With a minor, knit-piquing tweeking below.
18 hrs
  -> Thanks, Chris!
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

19 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
an alloy which appears to be the same as


Explanation:
"The disk is cast or, more likely, cut from a sheet of bronze which appears to be of the same alloy as that from which the handle was made.

Though he's not had the benefit of a spectrographic analysis to prove it, I suppose that Benediti is assuming that both the mirror and the handle are from the same bronze alloy* --presumably from the color (or colour) of both the bare bronze itself (wherever/if it may be seen on both elements) and that of the patina.

Mixing up batches of bronze was probably far from an exact science, so there would inevitably be variations in the alloy content from batch to batch; and we have seen in earlier descriptions that certain alloys are more prone to "excessive" oxidation, which manifests itself as occasional spots of thicker encrustations (rather than as merely a smooth patina).

The assumption that both parts of the thing were made of bronze of identical alloy contents is, of course, a quite reasonable one --it is highly unlikely that the smith would mix up two separate batches of copper and tin to fabricate both elements of a single (compound) object.

It is not clear to me why he believes that the mirror was "cut from a sheet" (not a "leaf") rather than merely cast in a round mold (which could then be further smoothed through abrasion. Perhaps there are irregularities in the circle --trimming marks-- which suggest that this was the way the thing was formed. In any event, since he doesn't give his reasons for this assumption, the hapless translator is not obligated to speculate on what those reasons might have been.

*Tony is quite right that all bronze is an alloy; however, I believe that the use of "bronze alloy" here is not redundant, since it refers to the *specific* "alloy content" i.e., the relative amounts of copper, tin, etc. which made up the specific bronze alloy in question. (We can't use "allodial" because than word means somthing else.)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2017-03-28 13:24:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A bit of a change for clarification purposes seems necessary:

"The disk is cast or, more likely, [it] *was* cut from a sheet of bronze which appears to be of the same alloy as that from which the handle was made."

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 19:44
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 3
Grading comment
Thanks to all who gave feedback!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: You seem to have misunderstood my comment, which was not that anything was redundant, but simply that we need to keep both 'bronze' and 'alloy' in the 2 parts of the phrase respectively.
31 mins
  -> Sorry, Tony; more of a Sin of Omission was intended. Btw, I agree with your addition of these questions to the "Tech/Engineering" field, but not if "Art/Literary" is excluded. These are, indeed, "Art" objects, even if they are "artefats".
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.


See also:
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search