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Which "variant", if any, of your native language do you speak?
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
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Norwegian to English
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Speak vs write Nov 7, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

To get things started, a means has been provided to specify which variant(s) of your native language you speak (or that you speak "most naturally").


Henry Dotterer wrote:

Anne Diamantidis wrote:
Also, there's "Parisian French" - I was not aware that the press in Paris was using a different language than the press in Marseille or Lyon...


This is a good point. There is such a thing as a variation in accent that would not rise to the level of a language variant as suits our purposes here. To take an example from my locale, a person from Brooklyn sounds quite different from a person from New York's "North Country", but I can't think of an instance in which we would want to differentiate between the two for ProZ.com purposes.


I think asking which variant the translator speaks, rather than writes, leads to confusing and unhelpful responses.


[Edited at 2012-11-07 20:08 GMT]


 
Henry Dotterer
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Thanks, Emma Nov 7, 2012

Emma Goldsmith wrote:

If the purpose of adding a language variant to our profiles is so that an outsourcer can filter by it, please make sure that we are not excluded from wider searches. In my case, for example, if someone searches for English (in general), and I have stated UK English as my variant, I should still appear in search results.

I mention this because a few months ago an outsourcer specified MS Word as a requirement for a job, and I was unable to quote because I only had MS Office specified in my profile! I have now entered both, and as a result it looks as if I don't have a clue about what MS Office is.

Agreed. Good point, and sorry for the poor implementation of MS Office / MS Word.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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Spoken vs. written Nov 7, 2012

Michele Fauble wrote:
I think asking which variant the translator speaks, rather than writes, leads to confusing and unhelpful responses.

Yeah, I think you are on to something there. But then, people do use ProZ.com to find interpreters, so it is not the case that we don't care about spoken variants. Another thought is that sometimes what we think of as variants that are "spoken" but not "written", do make a difference when written, in some cases. "Kansai" Japanese would be one example, I would say. It matters in our current contest, it matters in contests, it probably matters in game localization, subtitling, etc.

In short, I've been wondering how to square this spoken/written issue. I lean towards continuing to ask what native language, and language variant, people "speak".


 
Ty Kendall
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United Kingdom
Local time: 07:11
Hebrew to English
Ok...... Nov 8, 2012

Looking at the stats so far.....

There are 3 Japanese speakers whose variant is "English" (what part of Japan is that? Next to Osaka?)

There are 2 English speakers whose variant is "french" (lower case to boot).

There are 2 English speakers whose variant is "Arabic" and 2 Arabic speakers whose variant is "English".

There is 1 English speaker whose variant is "Chinese".

...not to mention the English speaker whose variant is "Englis
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Looking at the stats so far.....

There are 3 Japanese speakers whose variant is "English" (what part of Japan is that? Next to Osaka?)

There are 2 English speakers whose variant is "french" (lower case to boot).

There are 2 English speakers whose variant is "Arabic" and 2 Arabic speakers whose variant is "English".

There is 1 English speaker whose variant is "Chinese".

...not to mention the English speaker whose variant is "Englisch".

Either a lot of people are taking the p*ss or someone has lost the keys to the asylum.
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Sheila Wilson
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Spain
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Member (2007)
English
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Great stuff! Nov 8, 2012

Ty Kendall wrote:
There are 2 English speakers whose variant is "french" (lower case to boot).

There are 2 English speakers whose variant is "Arabic" and 2 Arabic speakers whose variant is "English".

There is 1 English speaker whose variant is "Chinese".

...not to mention the English speaker whose variant is "Englisch".

I had doubts about the usefulness of this proposed field. Not now! Those people have clearly identified themselves as non-native speakers of English after all - just what the recent long thread was asking for.


 
Sigfrido
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France
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Castellano (Castilian) Nov 9, 2012

Castilian is one of the 5 official languages spoken in Spain. AKA Español de España.

 
LilianNekipelov
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I really think the term "native" should be changed into "primary", and the first language you learn Nov 9, 2012

as a child to L1, to avoid any nationalistic issues of the kind that "some people who are not English claim English as their native language", etc. This may really be beneficial.

Otherwise, perhaps just levels should be assigned to languages, rather than calling them native or something else. Ex. English -- level - native., German - level - native, Spanish - level - fluent, etc. Many translation companies do that, in fact, when they want to have a better idea about the translat
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as a child to L1, to avoid any nationalistic issues of the kind that "some people who are not English claim English as their native language", etc. This may really be beneficial.

Otherwise, perhaps just levels should be assigned to languages, rather than calling them native or something else. Ex. English -- level - native., German - level - native, Spanish - level - fluent, etc. Many translation companies do that, in fact, when they want to have a better idea about the translator's proficiency in all the languages declared.










[Edited at 2012-11-09 13:53 GMT]
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Sean McDonald
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Spanish to English
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A quick clarification please? Nov 9, 2012

As we are going over the data that is coming in, we have seen a distinct pattern when it comes to English variants. There are a large portion of people entering in "British" but there is also a significant number of people entering in "UK"

I can see a very strong argument for keeping these variants separated but that does not mean there is not a strong argument for combining them.

I was hoping to get some opinions on this matter as we continue to refine the system.


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:11
Hebrew to English
Hardly matters Nov 9, 2012

The UK / British thing, ... in my opinion it really doesn't make one iota of difference.
Combine them, separate them, it's all the same....
... Although you might want to bear in mind the difference between GB and the UK when factoring this topic into any decision process. (i.e. Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but not GB....).
In addition, what happens if/when Scotland chooses independence I wonder.... :-/

@"Lilian Boland"
Give up the crusade already! Ne
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The UK / British thing, ... in my opinion it really doesn't make one iota of difference.
Combine them, separate them, it's all the same....
... Although you might want to bear in mind the difference between GB and the UK when factoring this topic into any decision process. (i.e. Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but not GB....).
In addition, what happens if/when Scotland chooses independence I wonder.... :-/

@"Lilian Boland"
Give up the crusade already! Never gonna happen. If you think "Primary" language is a more precise or better term than "Native" language then think again. In addition, nationalism is irrelvant, English is the native language of many more nations other than England.

[Edited at 2012-11-09 19:56 GMT]
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XXXphxxx (X)
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GB/UK Nov 9, 2012

My proposal would be to have UK and then people in Northern Ireland can opt for that or Ireland/Irish if they prefer.

 
Alexander C. Thomson
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Definitely 'UK' Nov 10, 2012

Lisa's right. The whole point is that variants have to do with jurisdictions (yes, I know there are several of those within the UK) and governmental/marketing systems. Scotland used Scots for administration and law until 1707 and if it leaves the UK, there will be a much boosted case for widely recognising Scottish English as a variant for fields such as Government/Politics, Law and perhaps some kinds of marketing translations.

Variants are not geographical considerations per
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Lisa's right. The whole point is that variants have to do with jurisdictions (yes, I know there are several of those within the UK) and governmental/marketing systems. Scotland used Scots for administration and law until 1707 and if it leaves the UK, there will be a much boosted case for widely recognising Scottish English as a variant for fields such as Government/Politics, Law and perhaps some kinds of marketing translations.

Variants are not geographical considerations per se; that would make them analogous to dialects, which (as several have already pointed out on this thread) they're not. An Ulsterman can offer UK English and Irish English in whatever combinations he likes: the determining factor in offering the latter will be whether the texts being produced are directed to the Republic of Ireland (or all-Ireland cultural bodies) and hence require the few but important lexical distinctives of formal Irish English to be reflected for specific political or marketing purposes. (And that's why Microsoft and other software providers localize to Irish English but not to Scottish, Welsh, 'GB' or any other kind of English within Europe).

Of course there are Ireland-wide, cross-community distinctives of English in Ireland (such as "have you your ticket bought" and "whenever John was born"), as there are of English in Scotland, English in Wales, and English in various regions of England; but these are not a bound set of formal written usages and do not constitute a language variant in the way that the English used by legislators, broadcasters and educators in the Republic of Ireland does (albeit a variant very close to UK English if we discount phonology).

To illustrate this with reference to Scotland: as things stand, there is next to no economic driver for an outsourcer to scour ProZ for Scottish English translators/localizers/interpreters for anything other than perhaps legal translation (and even there it seems not to be in demand, although multinationals with a London office have to have a Scots lawyer and a Northern Irish lawyer on their books). But from the first months of any future independent Scotland, publishers, educational institutions, lobbyists and other forms of customers for linguistic services using ProZ may well want to use this search criterion, because there will then be a market (not perhaps a very large one) for particular forms of publications targeted at Scotland. Words such as "outwith" and "Kirk" would in such cases be used in preference to "beyond" and "Church of Scotland", even in formal publications.

[Edited at 2012-11-10 16:30 GMT]
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Alexander C. Thomson
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Dutch to English
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I meant 'UK' as opposed to 'GB', not 'UK' as opposed to 'British' Nov 10, 2012

Just to point out I'm not trying to argue against the use of 'British English', synonymous with 'UK English'. It is such a well-established term (thanks especially to the traction of some prominent educational and broadcasting bodies that have consistently used it) that it will win out in practice anyway.

 
Marina Steinbach
Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 03:11
Member (2011)
English to German
Why is my language variant now "Standard-Germany"? Nov 12, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Oops! Please try again...


I noticed that you changed my language variant from "German (Germany)" to "Standard-Germany". Why?

The other options for my language are "Swiss", "Austrian" and "Other".
My language variant should IMHO consequently be "German".

Marina


 
GR Steinbach (X)
GR Steinbach (X)
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Why is there a language variant if you acquired German in Germany? Nov 12, 2012

Why is there a language variant if you acquired German in Germany?

 
KKastenhuber
KKastenhuber  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 08:11
Russian to German
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German from Germany is not the only Standard German there is Nov 12, 2012

Marina Steinbach wrote:

I noticed that you changed my language variant from "German (Germany)" to "Standard-Germany". Why?

The other options for my language are "Swiss", "Austrian" and "Other".
My language variant should IMHO consequently be "German".




I agree! Except that I would put it the other way around and add in "Standard" to the Swiss and Austrian varieties (Austrian Standard German, Swiss Standard German). The options that are offered now strongly suggest that Austrian and Swiss translators are unable to produce Standard German texts, which is untrue. In fact, most native German speakers speak two different kinds of German: Their country's respective version of Standard German (which is used for any kind of writing and on television) and some sort of dialectal variety (which is used with family and friends). This holds true also for Germany!

I have pointed this out before, but apparently it has been overlooked, so I'll quote the relevant parts of my posts:

There's definitely a danger of potential customers being lead into thinking that translators who write they are native speakers of "German (Austria)" (or anything along those lines) will render their text in some sort of dialect and not in Standard German, and that is simply not true. Choosing a variety other than "High/Standard German" (which is redundant, since it applies to basically any written German text, with very few exceptions) or "German (Germany)" would basically equal deliberately excluding oneself from jobs that one is well able to do, just because one didn't grow up in Germany (which is usually perceived as the - only - country where "unmarked" German is spoken/written, although this is far from true).


German from Germany is often equated with Standard German, which is a fallacy


The feature as suggested right now only reinforces the widespread prejudice that varieties of German outside of Germany are automatically non-standard. Sorry for being so critical, Henry, but even the wording of the thread title gives that impression: Which "variant", if any, of your native language do you speak? If any? Doesn't this suggest that there must be a "non-variant", something that is the real deal, and not just a less prestigious version of it? And if there is, where is it spoken? In the case of German, people will usually think that the answer is: in Germany. But the only somewhat legitimate justification for them to think so is the fact that Germany has about five times as many native German speakers as all the rest of us have counted together. German German is not better, it's not more correct, and it's not uniform itself. It is not the "non-variant" whose existence the thread title suggests.


I honestly don't know what ProZ had in mind when they standardized the drop down options for German. They make no sense at all and discriminate German translators who are not from Germany.

If you want to better understand the specific situation for German, here's a great wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German (especially the parts about pluricentricity and the continuum between Standard German and German dialects). Maybe ProZ could adopt the classification used in the picture on the wiki page.

[Edited at 2012-11-12 10:46 GMT]


 
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