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Which "variant", if any, of your native language do you speak?
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:02
Hebrew to English
Pigs are flying! I agree with Siegfried! :-) Nov 2, 2012

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
This whole business of introducing language variants will not resolve the issue of false claims regarding "native language", in contrast if the language variants are combined with the field "native language", things will only become a lot more complicated and a lot more people will see a "need" to cheat to gain access to certain market segments.


[Edited at 2012-11-02 11:33 GMT]


Amazingly, I actually agree with this. I'm really struggling to see how this will do anything other than complicate things and muddy the waters further.

I can't wrap my head around the fact that this site steadfastly refuses to define "native language" (something which has caused enough damage itself - see the mega-thread on native language claims) ...and now they want to compound it by having us list variants, presumably with equally vague guidelines on what a "variant" is.

I'm waiting for the new thread to materialize now...."Should native language variants be verified?".

[Edited at 2012-11-02 12:02 GMT]


 
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:02
Swedish to English
+ ...
Maybe this feature needs some more thought Nov 2, 2012

How can you get any reliable data if you do not define parameters? Such as how to define and name variants. Leaving the variant field open to any person's interpretation is unlikely to give you reliable data.

For example, the data so far for Norwegian is quite interesting. Two entires which both indicated language as "Norwegian (Nynorsk)" and variant as "bokmål".

I'm not a Norwegian speaker, but am pretty sure that there are two official written variants - nynorsk and
... See more
How can you get any reliable data if you do not define parameters? Such as how to define and name variants. Leaving the variant field open to any person's interpretation is unlikely to give you reliable data.

For example, the data so far for Norwegian is quite interesting. Two entires which both indicated language as "Norwegian (Nynorsk)" and variant as "bokmål".

I'm not a Norwegian speaker, but am pretty sure that there are two official written variants - nynorsk and bokmål. But these two persons have indicated that one is a variant of the other???
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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 12:02
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TOPIC STARTER
Definitely a complex topic Nov 2, 2012

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
This whole business of introducing language variants will not resolve the issue of false claims regarding "native language"...

Of course not. I suppose I should not have even mentioned the native language thread at the start of this post. This is a different topic.
, in contrast if the language variants are combined with the field "native language", things will only become a lot more complicated...

No doubt. It is a complex area.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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Thanks, KKastenhuber Nov 2, 2012

KKastenhuber wrote:
Henry Dotterer wrote:
I would add that the proper way to address language variants, if at all, depends not only on language but also on the application, be it KudoZ, profiles, jobs, contests, CPN screening and so on.

Good point. I remember that my entry for the 9th translation contest was rated down for using correct Austrian Standard German (not obscure austriacisms), although there had been no specifications made beforehand concerning the variety of German we were supposed to write in. (Had it been otherwise, I would have known what changes to make or chosen not to enter my translation at all.)

Exactly. Language variants frequently come into play in the contests. (This is especially true in the current contest, where the source material is rather colloquial. We see variants coming into play even in languages in Alexander's "counter-productive" list (Japanese, for example).)
As to the feedback you asked for, here's what has been entered for German so far:

Deutschland (="Germany"): 6 times
Deutsch (="German"): 4 times
Hochdeutsch (most commonly stands for "High German" in the sense of "Standard German"): 2 times

You left out Swiss/Schweiz German, which two people had entered, and Österreich (which may have appeared after your post, or perhaps was entered by you?) Consider that it is not uncommon for a job poster to specify Swiss German as a requirement in job postings (often choosing to put it in the title of the posting). And a good number of profile owners have chosen to identify their German as Swiss German.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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Thanks, Helena Nov 2, 2012

Helena Chavarria wrote:

I am British and I would find it impossible to translate into US English. I know the odd word/difference: garbage - rubbish; subway - underground/tube; gotten - got; cool - great, ize- ise, etc. but I'm afraid that's as far as I can go.

When asked, I happily translate into my acquired language, Spanish, but I would never translate into US English.

Interesting, Helena, thank you for sharing your somewhat unique circumstance.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 12:02
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TOPIC STARTER
Why there isn't yet a dropdown Nov 2, 2012

Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
... I'm just wondering why there isn't a drop-down menu, which would surely make your data gathering more coherent?

There will be a drop down. (There will also be an "other" category.)

Although the process of defining categories will of necessity be a joint process, it is better that the process start with the community, not the site, and a blank slate.


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 16:02
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
I don't think it's anything like unique Nov 2, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Helena Chavarria wrote:

I am British and I would find it impossible to translate into US English. I know the odd word/difference: garbage - rubbish; subway - underground/tube; gotten - got; cool - great, ize- ise, etc. but I'm afraid that's as far as I can go.

When asked, I happily translate into my acquired language, Spanish, but I would never translate into US English.

Interesting, Helena, thank you for sharing your somewhat unique circumstance.

I don't translate into French as I only started living there at the age of 40 (after lifelong study), but I can see why others might translate into their 'foreign' language if they've been living it for many years.

But how many Brits are there who've never lived in America, and vice-versa? Millions? I've never formally studied American; I've never been to America - how could I truthfully say that I can translate into it? Is that somewhat unique?

I do sometimes proofread English that the client says is simply "English". If it turns out to be in American English, then I tell the client that I can't be absolutely sure to leave it 100% American, but I do try not to change US into UK forms. How could I be absolutely sure when, only 15 years ago as an EFL teacher (before becoming a translator), I was correcting my students who wrote "specialty" in their CVs (sorry, they'd be resumes)?


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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True, Sheila Nov 2, 2012

Sheila Wilson wrote:
Henry Dotterer wrote:
Helena Chavarria wrote:
I am British and I would find it impossible to translate into US English. I know the odd word/difference: garbage - rubbish; subway - underground/tube; gotten - got; cool - great, ize- ise, etc. but I'm afraid that's as far as I can go.

When asked, I happily translate into my acquired language, Spanish, but I would never translate into US English.

Interesting, Helena, thank you for sharing your somewhat unique circumstance.

I don't think it's anything like unique

I don't translate into French as I only started living there at the age of 40 (after lifelong study), but I can see why others might translate into their 'foreign' language if they've been living it for many years.

But how many Brits are there who've never lived in America, and vice-versa? Millions? I've never formally studied American; I've never been to America - how could I truthfully say that I can translate into it? Is that somewhat unique?

I do sometimes proofread English that the client says is simply "English". If it turns out to be in American English, then I tell the client that I can't be absolutely sure to leave it 100% American, but I do try not to change US into UK forms. How could I be absolutely sure when, only 15 years ago as an EFL teacher (before becoming a translator), I was correcting my students who wrote "specialty" in their CVs (sorry, they'd be resumes)?

Right! And I frequently forget not to use the term "CV" locally...

Thanks for the post, though. You are right, the idea of being more comfortable translating into an acquired language than into a variant of one's own language is by no means astonishing.


 
Marina Steinbach
Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 12:02
Member (2011)
English to German
Thanks for being so patient with me. Nov 2, 2012

KKastenhuber wrote:

E.g., if I were to enter the information that I speak an Austrian variety of German, I would have to write "German (Austria)" or "Austrian German" and not "Deutsch (Österreich)" or "Österreichisches Deutsch". This is only requested in this early stage of data gathering so the ProZ team can easily evaluate the information that is being entered. It might be handled differently when/if the feature is permanently implemented.


I have tried to enter both German (Germany) and Germany, but receive the following message:

Please do not include the language name

Got any other ideas for me?



 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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Sorry, Marina! Nov 2, 2012

Marina Steinbach wrote:
KKastenhuber wrote:
E.g., if I were to enter the information that I speak an Austrian variety of German, I would have to write "German (Austria)" or "Austrian German" and not "Deutsch (Österreich)" or "Österreichisches Deutsch". This is only requested in this early stage of data gathering so the ProZ team can easily evaluate the information that is being entered. It might be handled differently when/if the feature is permanently implemented.


I have tried to enter both German (Germany) and Germany, but receive the following message:

Please do not include the language name

Got any other ideas for me?


Oops! Please try again...


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 13:02
English to Portuguese
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In memoriam
The driving force Nov 2, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:
You are right, the idea of being more comfortable translating into an acquired language than into a variant of one's own language is by no means astonishing.


This is (and should be) the driving force behind this whole initiative. Many outsourcers are either unaware or careless about language variants, and Proz could help leading them the right way.

To illustrate the importance of variants in business, a short story.

I had a chance to chat with the service shop manager of a large VW dealership here in Sao Paulo. He showed me their new computer that was used to diagnose and to some extent fix, by reprogramming, all the engine electronics (while he was doing it on my wife's car). It was a plain PC with a special interface and some very special software. That machine, ready for use, cost that dealership USD 123K!

He added that if a Land Rover - of which he knew nothing about - were brought there, he'd plug it to that computer, go online, and then some engineer in the UK would troubleshoot and possibly repair it via www.

Brazilian law requires that such a machine (or any other) can only be imported if it includes a manual in Portuguese language. Both Brazil and Portugal Constitutions state clearly that "Portuguese is the national language", consequently one and only.

Yet that manager told me that the manuals that came with that USD 123K computer were all in European Portuguese. Very clearly written, possibly well translated, however they had a much harder time to understand the language (variant) than its contents.


Obviously, the cost of having the manual for such an expensive and important piece of equipment translated into the target language variant would have been a drop in the bucket... had the end-client been made sufficiently aware of the difference.

Some languages don't have any variants from the original version. Yet others do, and it's up to the 'translation circuit' to make its clientele well aware of it, when it's the case.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:02
English to German
+ ...
Quark und Schmarrn (curd cheese and cut-up pancake) Nov 2, 2012

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

Which languages have variants and which languages don't?
It is very interesting that I (native German for Germany, living in Germany) who regularly translates into German-Germany, German-Switzerland and German-Belgium feels that there are clear differences, (in terminology, spelling, grammar and cultural context) between the various German language variants, whereas some Austrian colleagues are fighting for their ability to speak/write "Standard German" (an ability I am not disputing at all) and one even claims that native speakers not living in the country where their native language is spoken are often even more capable to translate into their native language than translators who stayed in their native country (my opinion in German for Austria "Das ist Topfen").


Okay, if you quote me, then please show the real quote, please.

Here is what I said:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Another consideration includes NS living in other countries than the ones they grew up in.
They are often just as capable or even more capable to undertake a project into or from their NL than someone still living in their NL country (variant should not mean you live there).


And it certainly is not "Quark" or, as you said, "Topfen" (thanks for trying to create an Austrian variant of that phrase that doesn't really exist yet) .

For our English readers- "Das ist Quark" means "that's rubbish/nonsense", a saying based on the literal meaning of Quark (a term used mainly in Germany), not "Topfen" (Bavarian and Austrian variant of the literal meaning of "Quark"), both meaning "curd cheese".

In Austria, instead of saying "Das ist doch Quark" we would say "(Das ist doch)Schmarrn/So ein Schmarrn", not "Das ist Topfen". But that's an aside and you were probably just trying to be funny.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmarrn


A native German speaker who has a great grasp of English might indeed be better suited for many jobs into German. It has to do with cultural and linguistic understanding of the source text.

And yes, a native German speaker can indeed speak and write perfect German, even if he's been living abroad, especially if he works as a "translator."
For your information, I also lived near Salzburg for about a year, just a few years ago.
If you publish your opinions about me in the forums, then you should probably have all the facts before you start assuming things.

Bernhard

[Edited at 2012-11-03 00:40 GMT]


 
Siegfried Armbruster
Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:02
English to German
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In memoriam
Topfen or Variant Nov 2, 2012

Just for everybodies info:

Der Topfen (österreichisch umgangssprachlich abwertend) Unsinn

http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Topfen

http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Topfen

These references clearly say "one of the meanings of topfen in Austria is "n
... See more
Just for everybodies info:

Der Topfen (österreichisch umgangssprachlich abwertend) Unsinn

http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Topfen

http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Topfen

These references clearly say "one of the meanings of topfen in Austria is "nonsense".

Characteristic uses
Topfen reden, Topfen verzapfen -> talking nonsense.
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Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:02
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Norwegian Nov 2, 2012

Bokmål | Norwegian (Nynorsk)


This is just wrong.

Bokmål is a written standard and Nynorsk is a written standard. There is no such thing as a Bokmål variety of Nynorsk.


[Edited at 2012-11-02 19:23 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:02
English to German
+ ...
Topfen verzapfen Nov 2, 2012

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

Just for everybodies info:

Der Topfen (österreichisch umgangssprachlich abwertend) Unsinn

http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Topfen

http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Topfen

These references clearly say "one of the meanings of topfen in Austria is "nonsense".

Characteristic uses
Topfen reden, Topfen verzapfen -> talking nonsense.


Yes, Topfen verzapfen or Topfen zusammenreden yes, slangy, maybe, although I never used "Topfen reden"; maybe "einen Topfen zusammen reden", yes that I have heard. But check your Ghits.

But "Das ist Topfen" is not used at all.
"Topfen" by itself is not used to say "nonsense", never mind wiktionary or the Duden.

You need to combine the right words for it to mean "nonsense".

http://www.cosmiq.de/qa/show/3334899/Was-fuer-ein-Quark-Wie-sagt-das-der-gemeine-Oesterreicher/

Bernhard

[Edited at 2012-11-02 19:37 GMT]


 
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