| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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| Let's talk figures... | Jan 10, 2017 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
You are basically saying that someone's work, professional effort, expertise, and years of education should be rewarded with less money just because a person is based in XY country, and also I can hear a sense/tone of pride in your saying so. You are basically saying someone is triumphing by lowering their price. Your logic doesn't have to be my logic.
You're putting words in my mouth and you're doing it in an offensive way, too ("I will surprise you", "hear a tone of pride"). I think I used many actual numbers in my post, no point in repeating them. I was never "basically saying" that someone's work should be rewarded with less money - I specifically explained how someone can afford being rewarded with this or that rate. Two different things.
I have a very low tolerance to syllogistic fallacy, so I'll stop here
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... a professional site should cater to professional members.
Yes, but surely you do not place ProZ in that category, or... do you?
| | | | MK2010 
United States
Local time: 09:44
French to English
+ ...
| Not should, CAN | Jan 10, 2017 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
You are basically saying that someone's work, professional effort, expertise, and years of education should be rewarded with less money just because a person is based in XY country, and also I can hear a sense/tone of pride in your saying so.
What some people here are saying is that it CAN be an advantage. A competitive edge. Living in a location where the cost of living is lower has its advantages. Nobody HAS to offer lower wages if they don't want to, but being able to afford to and still make a good living is a huge advantage.
An example of other types of advantages related to location: several of the biggest, ongoing jobs I have require translators to reside in the U.S. Is it fair to equally competent linguists who happen to be living outside the U.S. at the moment? Probably not. But that's the way it is and it gives me a major advantage and I'm grateful for it.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:44
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Well I assume it, and many visitors do. | Jan 10, 2017 |
Miguel Carmona wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... a professional site should cater to professional members. Yes, but surely you do not place ProZ in that category, or... do you?
Yes, I should do so. I advertise here, so you can find me. I am part of the site.
[Edited at 2017-01-10 18:52 GMT]
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S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 16:44
English to Romanian
| Lowest acceptable rate | Jan 11, 2017 |
So, Bernhard, in your opinion, what would be the lowest acceptable rate for all language combinations? I am not interested in the community rates link.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:44
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Should be more than 5 Cents | Jan 12, 2017 |
Sorana_M. wrote:
So, Bernhard, in your opinion, what would be the lowest acceptable rate for all language combinations? I am not interested in the community rates link.
I can't really say that because I can't speak for all language combinations. I would hope no one works for less than 5 Cents for any project anywhere, but when it comes to my own language combination, the bottom line is most often much higher than 5 Cents, I am sure. The only situation I can imagine where someone even approaches this figure is with very large and homogeneous projects. It's no secret that book publishers usually offer incredibly low rates - at least in my language combination - and royalties should always be seen as a separate entity and not used to lower the actual price for translation. Most important to me is that no translator should be induced to simply accept a very low rate that an outsourcer feels he/she has a right to demand and receive. Thus my suggestion to do away with that on job boards..
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:44
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Sorana_M. wrote:
So, Bernhard, in your opinion, what would be the lowest acceptable rate for all language combinations? I am not interested in the community rates link. I can't really say that because I can't speak for all language combinations. I would hope no one works for less than 5 Cents for any project anywhere, but when it comes to my own language combination, the bottom line is most often much higher than 5 Cents, I am sure. The only situation I can imagine where someone even approaches this figure is with very large and homogeneous projects. It's no secret that book publishers usually offer incredibly low rates - at least in my language combination - and royalties should always be seen as a separate entity and not used to lower the actual price for translation. Most important to me is that no translator should be induced to simply accept a very low rate that an outsourcer feels he/she has a right to demand and receive. Thus my suggestion to do away with that on job boards..
Translators shouldn't be confusing "basic living" with "decent/enriching/comfortable" living when estimating their life standard in relation to working at a certain rate. Decent and comfortable living is not cheap anywhere, plus business costs for this particular business are the same for everyone - so why the rates shouldn't be?
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:44
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | About setting a rate | Jan 12, 2017 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
Translators shouldn't be confusing "basic living" with "decent/enriching/comfortable" living when estimating their life standard in relation to working at a certain rate. Decent and comfortable living is not cheap anywhere, plus business costs for this particular business are the same for everyone - so why the rates shouldn't be?
Also, we have times when we are very busy and times when we are not (working at professional rates). So, that needs to be figured into the price as well. And, I think I mentioned it earlier, any unit used to charge for the service, be it Cents/word or an hourly rate etc needs to take into account the project in its entirety. You can't really compare an hourly wage in another job, say teaching for example. I do teach German myself on occasion and there's a lot I can use over and over again. I know though that the way one teaches is the most important thing and should be compensated adequately As you all know, most of the time, every new translation project comes with new challenges, often research, constant checking and rechecking, so we should understand that our profession's rates should be based on what we do and not simply compared with other professions. If we want to compare, I suggest we compare with professions such as lawyers and any professional businesses where every day brings many challenges and many risks and one can never be sure how much one will earn.
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:44
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
I also saw somebody else on the topic comparing jars with spices with intellectual services/work. Don't think that comparison will ever work and it's pretty self-explanatory as to why.
I simply can't pack up my translations into cute little jars, then sit back and enjoy sales as they come along. Instead, I need to invest my effort and energy into each and every piece, and can never sell it twice.
[Edited at 2017-01-12 14:44 GMT]
| | | | | Costs are not the same | Jan 12, 2017 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
plus business costs for this particular business are the same for everyone - so why the rates shouldn't be?
That's inaccurate. I'm pretty sure a colleague in the US doesn't pay $5/mo for phone, $5/mo for internet access, and $30/mo actual office cost (i.e. the ratio of home bills one can report as business cost). Likewise, I'm sure that a colleague who obtained a degree in the US paid a hefty tuition even at an average university - here in Romania, state/public universities are still the best one can get in the country and pretty much free for those with good school grades and scholarship.
Besides, I don't think that business costs (i.e. the actual tax-deductible costs) are the only ones that should be compared, in the case of freelancers. Considering that a freelancer's income is his source of funds for living, meaning that it's not just a matter of profit like in the case of a company, the costs of living obviously play or can play a major role in setting one's prices.
So you have two options: you treat this a sort of a moral issue and then indeed rates should be roughly the same for professionals with the same experience and skills, or as an economic issue, and then you work with the actual figures.
I think there's an article or a post here written btw by a Romanian colleague who charges at least $0.1, describing a simple pricing method: 1) set the amount you want to earn (considering all factors), 2) define the time you're willing to spend on working, 3) see how many words you can translate, on average, in those hours, 4) divide these figures and there you have your reasonable rate.
[Edited at 2017-01-12 16:00 GMT]
| | | | | Slowly bottom feeders seem to learn: | Jan 25, 2017 |
Hello,
We have a project of 80k words English to German and German to English translation.
We are looking for best quality and lowest rates around.
Kindly bid with your lowest rate and experience.
Anyone with the lowest rate and lowest experience is welcome to bid, right? That would be consistent.
| | | | Dénis Wettmann
Ireland
Local time: 15:44
Member (2016)
German to English
+ ...
| I concur, several perspectives on the issue | Jan 26, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
This is one of those bad habits of most posters (mostly bad for the translators who accept them) on the job board: asking for a rate before the translator has even seen the texts/documents to be translated/proofread/revised/edited etc.
Or the posting of a price range - let's say from 4 cents to 6 cents per word from English to German (an example) or any price range for that matter.
Within a few minutes, you have people applying and ...uh ... bidding of course. Guess who gets the job? At what rate?!
Even though 80% of all Proz.com users who have reported rates - which is not necessarily a representative number and includes outsourcers as well - charge/pay more (as a disclaimer tells any translator looking at such posts), these postings continue on and people continue to bid. Must be working pretty well for those outsourcers.
I think Proz.com should do something about those unreasonable demands. Because there is nothing professional about them. That's my opinion and I am simply asking you to share your opinion.
My suggestion to Proz.com: Completely do away with the option for posters to post rates or rate ranges. And let's get rid of the silly asking for best rates (and other variations of it) as well.
From a job board:
"Contact us and send us your references and CV and include your best rate in the message."
or:
"Price range for this project: EUR .027 - .067/source word
PS: I am a member of the site. My name appears here. That used to be worth something to me and mean something to other professionals (just saying).
[Edited at 2017-01-04 14:55 GMT]
Do I advertise my rates publicly?
No, because they vary depending on the quality of the source text, language combination and tools required. Some clients want me that I don't proofread my own work (which I reject in most cases), some want me to maintain a specific formatting and some leave most choices to me. All this factors require me to evaluate and price every single job individually. In most cases I demand to review the source before I provide my definitive rate.
I don’t mind sharing my rates but unfortunately do some potential clients think that sharing your rate is automatically agreeing on this rate, which can make price negations more difficult. I appreciate the statistical value of sharing rates and it also satisfies my curiosity.
I get the feeling that many colleagues who operate on ProZ have not made the math and are not aware how much work at which specific rate they require to make a living. I work full-time as a translator and did set my personal goal to €0.12 per source word, which gives me an hourly rate of €30 when I translate and proofread 250 words per hour. This is still low considering my formal education and experience. Most clients pay more, particularly when it is psychology or medical related and some I take on for less to avoid idle times.
Cultural awareness is another important factor many do not seem to consider. I live currently in central Europe and I will not be able to survive for $0.02 even in the most affordable places. Furthermore, both language pairs I am translating into are only represented in countries that have higher cost of living. Assuming you can get a quality translation for a few cents per word seems just absurd to me.
ProZ as protected platform.
I totally agree that certain price ranges should not be dealt with on ProZ. I have a university degree, are in the process of earning my second and about to prepare for my PhD. I worked for ten years as a translator and have specialised for the past five. I can translate psychology and medical related content because I worked in those areas for years, I do not need to research specifics because I know by heart what it means. This makes me very good in my field but mediocre when translating content outside of my specialisations. Sometimes I find it rude when companies offer me unreasonable rates, particularly on ProZ. I feel my expertise is not valued by those individuals.
This brings me to another perspective. I learned to mostly ignore those offers and simply explain that the rate is too low. There will be always cheap offers by agencies or clients and always someone accepting those offers. I didn’t educate myself for this clientele and should not let my emotional state be affected by it, since it just reflects the state of our world. I don’t have to take those offers, I don’t have to get offended by it and I don’t even have to think about them. I just do what I do best, provide high quality translations for those who demand them.
To summarise:
I think lower priced translations have a market and like everything else in this world, will exists if I care about it or not. Should this practice be endorsed by ProZ? Clearly not. I came to this platform because I consider myself a professional and want to deal with the same. The biggest risk I see by allowing unreasonable offers to happen is ProZ turning into just another mediocre platform for translators.
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Cristiana Coblis
Romania
Local time: 16:44
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
+ ...
| Live and let live | Jan 28, 2017 |
If I remember correctly, the budget info in job posts was introduced at the request of the community. On a global website with a large number of active members around the world, it's impossible to make everyone happy.
I think it is great that all those people can be here and can openly share opinions. Some even make a living here or have found clients on the site. It has to be as fair as possible to everyone.
As far as these requests are concerned, I used to find them ... See more If I remember correctly, the budget info in job posts was introduced at the request of the community. On a global website with a large number of active members around the world, it's impossible to make everyone happy.
I think it is great that all those people can be here and can openly share opinions. Some even make a living here or have found clients on the site. It has to be as fair as possible to everyone.
As far as these requests are concerned, I used to find them disturbing as well. At one point, out of curiosity, I even bought a list of freelancers in my own language combo with their rates. It was not a pretty sight, let me tell you But some things became clearer.
After a while, you just learn not to take such things too personally. Several outsourcers contacted me last week asking for my best rate/most competitive rate. I am usually almost fully booked several days in advance, I can afford to simply reply that my rates are not what you would normally call competitive and that my availability is limited. I don't like to waste their time, I reply openly that they can easily find someone at half my price and with a lot more availability. There is no point in hiding such things, I choose to be open about it. I can offer the information, let them know my own rates and the type of services that I offer. Enough of them still want to work with me regardless. If they choose to go for someone else, that is quite fine with me. It may be easier to think it's because of the rate, but it is not always. I have once met a translator who did not think he was the best. His rates were higher than mine.
Did per word rates go down because of the internet? Probably. 10-15 years ago it was easier to get higher rates and I would turn down clients at good rates. 10 years ago, outsourcers would also not tell me what the average price for my language combo is and ask why I charge more. They did not have that data back then. Do I make more now than 10-15 years ago? Easily double or even triple that amount. Rates matter, but they are not everything. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Very sensible thoughts | Jan 28, 2017 |
Cristiana Coblis wrote: If I remember correctly, the budget info in job posts was introduced at the request of the community. On a global website with a large number of active members around the world, it's impossible to make everyone happy. I think it is great that all those people can be here and can openly share opinions. Some even make a living here or have found clients on the site. It has to be as fair as possible to everyone. As far as these requests are concerned, I used to find them disturbing as well. At one point, out of curiosity, I even bought a list of freelancers in my own language combo with their rates. It was not a pretty sight, let me tell you But some things became clearer. After a while, you just learn not to take such things too personally. Several outsourcers contacted me last week asking for my best rate/most competitive rate. I am usually almost fully booked several days in advance, I can afford to simply reply that my rates are not what you would normally call competitive and that my availability is limited. I don't like to waste their time, I reply openly that they can easily find someone at half my price and with a lot more availability. There is no point in hiding such things, I choose to be open about it. I can offer the information, let them know my own rates and the type of services that I offer. Enough of them still want to work with me regardless. If they choose to go for someone else, that is quite fine with me. It may be easier to think it's because of the rate, but it is not always. I have once met a translator who did not think he was the best. His rates were higher than mine. Did per word rates go down because of the internet? Probably. 10-15 years ago it was easier to get higher rates and I would turn down clients at good rates. 10 years ago, outsourcers would also not tell me what the average price for my language combo is and ask why I charge more. They did not have that data back then. Do I make more now than 10-15 years ago? Easily double or even triple that amount. Rates matter, but they are not everything.
This definitely makes a lot of sense.
Squeezing it into a nutshell:
Many want it CHEAP,
Some want it FAST,
A few want it GOOD,
... but NONE can have it all!
Yesterday I received a message (through another translation portal) from one who wanted it all:
Dear Sir/Madam,
We are a team of translation professionals, have come together to form XXXX, with an aim to provide 'better-faster-affordable' translation services.
We are looking for professional freelance translators, who too believe in giving their best, always.
We found your profile online and would love to have you listed on our translation database. Registering would help us to find to easily whenever a requirement matching your profile comes up.
As the market is competitive, we are expecting the best and competitive rates from you.
So I replied:
Your invitation is open for interpretation.
Technically, if you want translation done better-faster-affordable, you don't need me. Just use Google Translate. No human translator can do it faster, since it's immediate. It can't get any more affordable than 100% free. Now and then end-clients bluntly reject some human translations - usually done for half my rates or less - and the agencies who outsourced them hire me (at full rate, of course!) to redo them from scratch, so I've seen more than my share of these. Quite honestly, Google does it better than cheap translators.
My loyal and demanding clients consider my rates quite affordable for the quality and speedy turnaround I deliver. However they are quite demanding, no slipshod translation would be acceptable there.
I see you are located in India. No prejudice against the country itself or its people, but I've never been able to work for anyone located there. They usually offer me one-third of my rates as the absolute maximum. A few venture to offer barely half. While this may be reasonable in Mumbai or Delhi, you'd only get fledgling amateurs here in Sao Paulo, Brazil (and most other places too).
My translation rates are fixed, unchangeable. However interest rates in Brazil are absurdly high, so my best offer is for immediate payment, something I haven't seen in India. All agencies there want to pay me in 30 or 60 days after month end, which renders my rates not competitive at all.
I've been giving my best as a translator since 1973, and it pays off, as my best suffices for most clients globally.
If I see a job poster willing to pay less than my rates - which I take great care to be equivalent to colleagues in my language pair whose work I'd recommend - I immediately reckon that they are looking for some level of service different from what I offer. To me, it's the same as if they wanted exactly my level of service, but in a language pair I don't cover. It's a NO.
So I see no point in Proz refraining from publishing the rates offered, as long as clients are aware of what they'll get for them. In other words, there should be some incentive to make Prozians update their input to the community rates page.
In my view, restraining low rates from publication would make as much sense as banning English > Hindi jobs because they pay much less than French > German jobs.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 09:44
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So I see no point in Proz refraining from publishing the rates offered, as long as clients are aware of what they'll get for them. In other words, there should be some incentive to make Prozians update their input to the community rates page.
Not sure what you mean here.
Who's to know what the end client really pays after the agency had the job done for peanuts. And I talked before about quality that might actually be expected and delivered.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
In my view, restraining low rates from publication would make as much sense as banning English > Hindi jobs because they pay much less than French > German jobs.
By banning the demand for rate/rate ranges, the opportunity for the initial price quote shifts to the translator. As I have explained in this thread, I believe that's a good thing for all translators in any language combination.
[Edited at 2017-01-28 14:32 GMT]
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