| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] | Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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MK2010 
United States
Local time: 03:27
French to English
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| Yes, there is | Feb 11, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
There is (I believe I am right) still one situation where one can "reply" to a job posting as a non-paying member, namely when the poster doesn't want you to use the "submit your quote" button but instead asks to be contacted directly by email and allows that email to become visible by clicking on it (which it should be) AND in addition does not require that the translator be a paying member of Proz.com. But there aren't too many of those postings.
[Edited at 2017-02-11 05:33 GMT]
Non-paying members still receive a lot of job postings, they just usually have to wait until after the "members only" time period has lapsed before they can respond (to jobs where you contact the poster directly). I've landed some great and long-lasting clients as a non-paying member here and on the other site.
However, when I read in some other thread that most posters pick their translators within the first few hours (when non-members are still locked out), I realized it's probably a waste of time in most of cases. Still, it's a reflex to click open an email or browse the job postings, just in case you find that one posting you're really, really interested in.
[Edited at 2017-02-11 15:18 GMT]
[Edited at 2017-02-11 15:18 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 03:27
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
It make sense!
?
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
....
The entire setup makes sense, as Proz is a commercial enterprise, not a charity. It is expected to make a profit for those who invested in it. They have recalculated their "business equation", and consequently raised the membership fees and added some constraints to non-paying members.
It makes perfect sense! This model is used in numerous successful businesses.
Maybe super for Proz.com. But we're discussing here our business, not Proz.com's
However, there is a certain connection, although I am simply interested in what I get out of this relationship.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Think of any of the most famous theme parks in the USA. The free user has access to the external area, can take snapshots, post them on Facebook, and get VISIBILITY - like translators on Proz. In that external area, they can buy stuff, go on some low-value ride, etc. The member pays an admission fee, which grants them access to the inside, so their pix on social media will have a somewhat higher value, e.g. standing side by side with Mickey or Minnie. Depending on the park, when members are inside, they'll have to pay extra - or not - for some rides or all of them. There are special day passes including all rides, the common passes requiring extra pay for some/most of them, and so on.
Okay, so I paid for the "admission." Unfortunately, not all is as you describe it. I am not happy. Just re-read the post. We are discussing the posting of low rate ranges and their impact on OUR business.
There are outsourcers that don't pay any "admission" and post jobs as described already. They are not asked to pay. It's a free ride if they so choose.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The analogy is, of course, not 100% perfect in every detail, however the similarity is striking. Proz has not reinvented the wheel, just adapted a proven business model.
Why do you keep talking about their business model? But anyway. What is that? Attracting as many outsourcers as possible posting low rate ranges for free? Don't think so. Proz.com depends on paying members and advertisements.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The key point here is that "lame" or "boring" rides or shows equate to "unreasonable requests" in translation. They take up valuable space, and - most of all - if these are overwhelming, the trend will be to diminish the worth of the membership/admission fee.
Now you're talking. Yes, it's about worth and value to us.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Would you pay admission fees to take your kids to a zoo that only had domestic pets? The kids want to see lions, gorillas, elephants, tigers, etc. which are the high-paying translation jobs.
I wouldn't ... I mean I shouldn’t.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So I guess that Proz has a vested interest in eventually getting rid of the "poultry" taking space among the posted translation jobs. This is expected to happen naturally as they continue to reformulate their business equation.
Naturally? What does that mean? Who is expecting that? You? Proz.com? How do you know? I don't see any sign of reformulating of anything, certainly not with regard to the job board. Not even a comment here.
[Edited at 2017-02-12 05:17 GMT]
| | | | | Getting somewhere | Feb 12, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The entire setup makes sense, as Proz is a commercial enterprise, not a charity. It is expected to make a profit for those who invested in it. They have recalculated their "business equation", and consequently raised the membership fees and added some constraints to non-paying members.
It makes perfect sense! This model is used in numerous successful businesses. Maybe super for Proz.com. But we're discussing here our business, not Proz.com's However, there is a certain connection, although I am simply interested in what I get out of this relationship.
Guilty as charged from assuming facts not in evidence.
I assumed this thread was about PROZ doing away with the unreasonable requests it publishes.
As you can't easily prevent anyone from e-mailing, phoning, or otherwise contacting you with unreasonable requests, I assumed you weren't talking about hiring thugs to "teach a lesson" to the authors of such direct requests.
I assumed that Proz is a business, trying to pay the bills, hire staff, and eventually make a profit. It is a fact that, considering their scope of business, they need to attract both translation and translation clients, so that these will do business there, and keep coming back. As they come back over and over again, the e-venue becomes 'interesting' to translation-related products sellers, so they'll advertise here, and thus generate an additional income stream for the Proz business.
Do you ever visit a "competitor" named ***********Directory? (I'm precluded form naming names here.) They are the "e-homeland" of bottom-feeding translation clients. Now and then a worthy - but unwary or ill-advised - prospect tries to use it. I enrolled there for sheer visibility, I get their job e-mails to see what's going on in the marketplace, but I don't visit there, ever! That's why you don't see CAT tools and other stuff advertised there.
So I assumed this was all about Proz refraining from posting unreasonable requests.
Maybe it was about sending thugs to "teach a lesson" to translators who accept jobs at unreasonably low rates. I'd expect their spouses to teach these a lesson by endlessly nagging all the time about "all these unpaid bills, though you work seven days and nights a week".
I wouldn't know.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Think of any of the most famous theme parks in the USA. The free user has access to the external area, can take snapshots, post them on Facebook, and get VISIBILITY - like translators on Proz. In that external area, they can buy stuff, go on some low-value ride, etc. The member pays an admission fee, which grants them access to the inside, so their pix on social media will have a somewhat higher value, e.g. standing side by side with Mickey or Minnie. Depending on the park, when members are inside, they'll have to pay extra - or not - for some rides or all of them. There are special day passes including all rides, the common passes requiring extra pay for some/most of them, and so on.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Okay, so I paid for the "admission." Unfortunately, not all is as you describe it. I am not happy. Just re-read the post. We are discussing the posting of low rate ranges and their impact on OUR business.
There are outsourcers that don't pay any "admission" and post jobs as described already. They are not asked to pay. It's a free ride if they so choose.
Don't kill the messenger!
I don't blame Proz for it. Now and then - if I have the time - I advise lo-rate job posters that they'll be better served by using free machine translation. If it sticks, they'll increase their profits. If it doesn't, I'll be available to redo it all from scratch... at my regular rates! I suggest they think about the point of wasting money on cheap services that are, in fact, EXPECTED to be much worse than mediocre.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The analogy is, of course, not 100% perfect in every detail, however the similarity is striking. Proz has not reinvented the wheel, just adapted a proven business model.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Why do you keep talking about their business model? But anyway. What is that? Attracting as many outsourcers as possible posting low rate ranges for free? Don't think so. Proz.com depends on paying members and advertisements.
That's the very point! Would you PAY for privileged membership access to a translation portal where despicable rates overwhelmingly prevail among job offers!
It's on Proz's best business interest to have as many well-paying jobs privy to paying members, so their income from membership fees will soar. If they let cheap jobs take over, they'll end up like the aforementioned "competitor", which AFAIK lives mostly from selling translation clients' e-mail lists to translators who don't know any other way than spam to market their services.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So I guess that Proz has a vested interest in eventually getting rid of the "poultry" taking space among the posted translation jobs. This is expected to happen naturally as they continue to reformulate their business equation.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Naturally? What does that mean? Who is expecting that? You? Proz.com? How do you know? I don't see any sign of reformulating of anything, certainly not with regard to the job board. Not even a comment here.
Well, it's Proz's bottom line at stake. I take care of mine, I'd expect they take care of theirs, naturally!
[Edited at 2017-02-12 11:58 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 03:27
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Not getting anywhere with me | Feb 15, 2017 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The entire setup makes sense, as Proz is a commercial enterprise, not a charity. It is expected to make a profit for those who invested in it. They have recalculated their "business equation", and consequently raised the membership fees and added some constraints to non-paying members.
It makes perfect sense! This model is used in numerous successful businesses. Maybe super for Proz.com. But we're discussing our business here, not Proz.com's. However, there is a certain connection, although I am simply interested in what I get out of this relationship. Guilty as charged from assuming facts not in evidence. I assumed this thread was about PROZ doing away with the unreasonable requests it publishes. As you can't easily prevent anyone from e-mailing, phoning, or otherwise contacting you with unreasonable requests, I assumed you weren't talking about hiring thugs to "teach a lesson" to the authors of such direct requests.
My post is about NOT permitting posters to set a rate range. See my previous comments in this thread. The translator should take the effort to do that, at least that's the right way for a professional. To assume that it's not a biggie when posters set a rate range on job boards because we are going to convince them to pay more is wishful thinking. This is how it works: Job poster (paraphrased): Take it or leave it, translator. Translator: No problem, I'll do it for that bottom rate. Right now. I'm ready. Or maybe for half a cent cheaper. (Exceptions happen but they are not common. Try it out yourself.)
I want the good agencies, the good contacts, the good image, the professional community - that's what I am paying for. I don't want the donkeys in the zoo for my admission to use some of your words.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I assumed that Proz is a business, trying to pay the bills, hire staff, and eventually make a profit. It is a fact that, considering their scope of business, they need to attract both translation and translation clients, so that these will do business there, and keep coming back. As they come back over and over again, the e-venue becomes 'interesting' to translation-related products sellers, so they'll advertise here, and thus generate an additional income stream for the Proz business.
Why are you trying so hard Jose to "understand" and accept things this way? You are on the side of the translators - isn't it about building and paying for a professional community? Yes, Proz.com runs a business, but so do I. Do you see my point? My discussion is about my and other translators' businesses, not about how many cheap agencies can demand rate ranges here. I don't see how the current situation is helping any of us that pursue this as a serious career.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
.......
So I assumed this was all about Proz refraining from posting unreasonable requests.
Maybe it was about sending thugs to "teach a lesson" to translators who accept jobs at unreasonably low rates. I'd expect their spouses to teach these a lesson by endlessly nagging all the time about "all these unpaid bills, though you work seven days and nights a week".
I wouldn't know.
Proz.com is not posting the unreasonable requests, it's the posters. Proz.com publishes them and has the power to take that privilege of posting rate ranges away from posters which I would applaud. Nothing to do with thugs teaching anyone lessons etc.
...
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Well, it's Proz's bottom line at stake. I take care of mine, I'd expect they take care of theirs, naturally!
No, in the end it's just my bottom line I will take care of. No more additional expectations.
[Edited at 2017-02-15 06:25 GMT]
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| Some misconceptions | Feb 15, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: (JHL emphasis here)
My post is about NOT permitting posters to set a rate range. See my previous comments in this thread. The translator should take the effort to do that, at least that's the right way for a professional.
I want the good agencies, the good contacts, the good image, the professional community - that's what I am paying for. I don't want the donkeys in the zoo for my admission to use some of your words.
I understood that. Your intent is to have Proz - in its job post vetting process - deleting any information on how much the job poster is willing to pay.
Yes, that is what you are paying for, to Proz, which is a private business enterprise.
Just compare...
If you had elected Henry Dotterer as governor of the place where you live, he'd be free to set how much you must pay in taxes to go on living there; no other option.
As the CEO of Proz, Henry can decide how much you should pay for an array of services offered, however you keep to yourself the option of buying them or not.
For the sake of an example, let's assume that you hate the stench from tobacco smoke.
A restaurant owner decided to make smoking allowed everywhere within its premises.
Though you used to like their food, you'll probably start having your meals elsewhere to elude fumigation.
If that restaurant loses a significant part of its clientele, the non-smokers, smoke-haters, etc. it will be up to the owner to consider its impact on his bottom line, and perhaps change his policy.
If cigarette manufacturers give "branded" furniture, plates, whatever, for free to smoke-allowing establishments, that's another point to consider. (It's not the issue here, I'll come to it later.)
So it's up to the private business owner - be it Proz or the restaurant - to decide the policies they want to adopt, and live with the consequences, which are the business targeted customers to buy there or not.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Why are you trying so hard Jose to "understand" and accept things this way? You are on the side of the translators - isn't it about building and paying for a professional community? Yes, Proz.com runs a business, but so do I. Do you see my point? My discussion is about my and other translators' businesses, not about how many cheap agencies can demand rate ranges here. I don't see how the current situation is helping any of us that pursue this as a serious career.
I am in no position to understand and accept things "your way", Bernhard. I must face reality.
You said it correctly, I am on the "side" of the translators; I'm not running Proz. To the best of my knowledge, you aren't either.
Proz is - by concept - between translators and clients; its advertisers (the generous tobacco companies I mentioned before) turning it into a triangle. To some extent, Proz may shift to be closer to one of them, however not completely, at the risk of losing the other(s).
Though Proz may resemble a community, it is a commercial operation. By no means it is a non-profit organization intended to unite translators worldwide against bottom-feeding clients.
So the reality is that this decision is up to Proz.
After so many years as a paying member, last year I gave up. On top of the low-paying job posts, most of these low-paying jobs demand sine qua non owning Trados - which I don't and won't have. So I gave up, and moved back to being a free user, for as long as they allow me.
As I wrote on a post elsewhere, "must have Trados" seems to have become a standard default requirement on all Proz jobs, even when any CAT tool will be completely useless. And apparently it is difficult for a job poster to override that option, so they leave it in.
If prospects mentioning rates on job posts tend to make paying members to stop paying, it will be a Proz management decision to change that; not yours nor mine.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Proz.com is not posting the unreasonable requests, it's the posters. Proz.com publishes them and has the power to take that privilege of posting rate ranges away from posters which I would applaud.
Dead right!
Proz has an ideas section for this suggestion. If this idea gets massive votes, they'll supposedly think about it and make a decision... or not!
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Well, it's Proz's bottom line at stake. I take care of mine, I'd expect they take care of theirs, naturally!
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
No, in the end it's just my bottom line I will take care of. No more additional expectations.
That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you: the decision is yours.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 03:27
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Idea not picking up any steam here | Feb 15, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Proz.com is not posting the unreasonable requests, it's the posters. Proz.com publishes them and has the power to take that privilege of posting rate ranges away from posters which I would applaud.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Dead right!
Proz has an ideas section for this suggestion. If this idea gets massive votes, they'll supposedly think about it and make a decision... or not!
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Well, it's Proz's bottom line at stake. I take care of mine, I'd expect they take care of theirs, naturally!
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
No, in the end it's just my bottom line I will take care of. No more additional expectations.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you: the decision is yours.
I see your points Jose and I just realized you are not a paying member. That explains a lot.
As far as the submission of "ideas" is concerned, I am not hopeful. You're right when you say Proz.com is a business. As long as most translators who pay membership accept the status quo, nothing will change.
I hoped to reach out to colleagues who are also members here and concerned about their image, the site's image, and the opportunities to get reasonable projects. Gathering like-minded individuals in the forums sometimes used to have an effect. Also, spelling out certain problems as we see them (our bottom line, unfair/ridiculous competition, loss of projects to cheap vendors, etc.) and the possible consequences (one of them giving up our membership) might have an effect and might even be interesting to Proz.com But at this point, there is certainly nothing going on. It's just another thread wilting away.
[Edited at 2017-02-15 14:55 GMT]
| | | | Inga Petkelyte
Portugal
Local time: 08:27
Lithuanian to Portuguese
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| On an isloated island_ | Feb 15, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
...
My discussion is about my and other translators' businesses, not about how many cheap agencies can demand rate ranges here. I don't see how the current situation is helping any of us that pursue this as a serious career.
...
Competition never helps anyone's careerin themonetary terms, you should know it by now. Cheap agencies is a part of that competition, want it or not.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 03:27
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Inga Petkelyte wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
...
My discussion is about my and other translators' businesses, not about how many cheap agencies can demand rate ranges here. I don't see how the current situation is helping any of us that pursue this as a serious career.
...
Competition never helps anyone's careerin themonetary terms, you should know it by now. Cheap agencies is a part of that competition, want it or not.
here, I expect an environment that I feel comfortable in and positive about and a site that reflects my own standards. If it doesn't, I don't have to be here ... actually I shouldn't be here then.
[Edited at 2017-02-15 15:06 GMT]
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| In conclusion... | Feb 15, 2017 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I see your points Jose and I just realized you are not a paying member. That explains a lot.
Minor correction: after some 10+ (?) years, I am NO LONGER a paying member.
"Must have Trados" and pervasive low rates offered caused me to vote with one of my feet. The other is a free user.
Inga Petkelyte wrote:
Competition never helps anyone's career in the monetary terms, you should know it by now. Cheap agencies is a part of that competition, want it or not.
As modern technology has rendered tap water safe to drink in most of the places I've been to, I expected the improvement of free online machine translation to rid the market from cheap translation agencies and the relatively less skilled translators who serve them.
This failed to happen. My take is that these agencies want a human being they can BLAME for the low quality, regardless of the mutually agreed value of it, as they can't blame free-use hardware and software.
In the analogy, they'll drink the cheapest bottled and labeled water they can find, so they have a company to blame if their digestive tract - for whatever reason - becomes unable to hold anything inside on either end.
We'll go on selling fine and healthy beverages.
| | | | Inga Petkelyte
Portugal
Local time: 08:27
Lithuanian to Portuguese
+ ...
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
here, I expect an environment that I feel comfortable in and positive about and a site that reflects my own standards. If it doesn't, I don't have to be here ... actually I shouldn't be here then.
[Edited at 2017-02-15 15:06 GMT]
Then become a non-paying member but don't leave!
There are no global standards for commercial rates and such a huge site cannot possibly suit someone's personal standards (even if they are right). This is a situation where you have to adjust to the system, not the other way round. Try a year without being a paying member, if that bothers you so much. But don't disappear!
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