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Release announcement: New KudoZ features
Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto
Deborah do Carmo
Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 08:09
Dutch to English
+ ...
LCD May 19, 2006

As a former member of the site once said, this site is increasingly playing to the lowest common denominator.

I really have to agree tonight - this is possibly one of the strongest indications to date that it's the case.

Yet one more ploy to draw the crowds, keep traffic numbers up and keep the trigger-happy sufferers of KudoZ-itis (who are either obviously not working at all or paying scant attention to the little work they do have) content, firing away with yet more
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As a former member of the site once said, this site is increasingly playing to the lowest common denominator.

I really have to agree tonight - this is possibly one of the strongest indications to date that it's the case.

Yet one more ploy to draw the crowds, keep traffic numbers up and keep the trigger-happy sufferers of KudoZ-itis (who are either obviously not working at all or paying scant attention to the little work they do have) content, firing away with yet more inane answers to (often inane) questions......and now getting credit for it!

I can only echo other colleagues' misgivings. The "wait and see" approach is very tired with all due respect.

But then again who really cares as long as the cyber highway remains congested and pulls in the punters.....
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Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 05:09
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
Why not? May 19, 2006

Deborah do Carmo wrote:

Yet one more ploy to draw the crowds, keep traffic numbers up and keep the trigger-happy sufferers of KudoZ-itis (who are either obviously not working at all or paying scant attention to the little work they do have) content, firing away with yet more inane answers to (often inane) questions......and now getting credit for it!



What credit Deborah? We are talkng about not-for-points questions...

What is the problem with offering a novel service for people who needs a reasonable answer fast?

What is the problem with offering a not-for-points help to people who may not be translators, if the potential answerer knows this facts in advance and is willing to help anyway?

Why be afraid of testing new ideas? The great facts we have today were once new ideas.

Long time ago many people tought that KudoZ would never work...

Regards,
Enrique


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Deborah do Carmo
Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 08:09
Dutch to English
+ ...
Who mentioned points or fear? May 19, 2006

Enrique wrote:

What credit Deborah? We are talkng about not-for-points questions...

Why be afraid of testing new ideas? The great facts we have today were once new ideas.

Long time ago many people tought that KudoZ would never work...

Regards,
Enrique


Credit not in the sense of points but in the sense of recognition being given to people who provide what are often asinine answers off the top of their heads in that ego-inflated rush to be first to the finish line - there are so many cliques in some of the language pairs that getting two (three or four) peer agrees will not prove an obstacle. Birds of a feather and the like .....

Fear doesn't enter into the equation - I think if you read the thrust of what most people are saying tonight, it varies between slight irritation to outright disgust. I don't think any serious translator would "fear" this change, find it ridiculous certainly ....

KudoZ works? That must be then be the reason most native English speakers have all but abandoned the Portuguese to English site (as one example) and the abundance of Porglish in the glossary reigns supreme. Whilst some of the older entries are certainly helpful that unfortunately isn't the case today.

You've asked for feedback and whilst there are many good features about the site, this latest initiative and the (further) downward spiralling standards of the glossary it will certainly produce certainly isn't one of them IMHO. Accordingly, it isn't an effort I'd applaud or term an improvement.

Keep well
D.











[Edited at 2006-05-19 02:20]


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Margaret Schroeder
Margaret Schroeder  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 02:09
Spanish to English
+ ...
Posterity May 19, 2006

Enrique wrote:
What is the problem with offering a novel service for people who needs a reasonable answer fast?

What is the problem with offering a not-for-points help to people who may not be translators, if the potential answerer knows this facts in advance and is willing to help anyway?


There will be no problem if these questions are erased from the site once they have been closed.


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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:09
SITE FOUNDER
Quality *does* matter - that is why validation is required May 19, 2006

Sormane Fitzgerald Gomes wrote:

What you are saying - that in a rush quality will suffer - is true. We are not trying to replace the current model; the goal is different in FVA: it is to get the first validated answer, ie. the first acceptable answer (not the best possible answer.)
Henry

Not the best possible answer? That’s disgraceful (and believe me, that is the nicest way I can put it). What kind of example are we giving here as professional translators? That quality doesn't matter?

Quality does matter. That's why answers have to be validated twice.

I take your point about not trying to be all things to all people, by the way. However, delivering translations quickly to people who are not in a position to judge quality is really normal operating procedure for most of our members.
That goes against everything that a professional translator believes in. No translator worth their salt wants to hand in “acceptable” work. They want to hand in EXCELLENT work.

True, but step back for a minute. In practice, most translation jobs get done once, by one person, and then checked. It is not normal for a client to farm out a job three times, and select the best one from among those.

In other words, this new KudoZ mode is similar in some practical respects to the way the industry works. Some interesting possibilities may emerge.

Let's see how it goes, shall we? Here is the 2nd-ever FVA question: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1366113 The first one has closed: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1365639


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A Hayes (X)
A Hayes (X)
Australia
Local time: 18:09
another unfortunate step May 19, 2006

GoodWords wrote:

Allowing askers to close questions before 24 hours have passed has long been a factor contributing to poor choices and incorrect glossary entries. I foresee the above feature reinforcing this trend instead of working to counteract it. At what price convenience?

What happens all too often is that it doesn't take long for a quick but misguided early answer to accumulate two (or even many) agrees in a "bandwagon" effect. However as the hours go by, and one or several better, more correct answers are proposed and backed up with solid reasons and reliable references, later visitors to the query have a better choice; in the end the majority generally votes for a correct answer. Their comments and references then help the asker to choose correctly even if s/he doesn't speak the target language.

[Edited at 2006-05-18 15:39]


Spot on. Although I don't agree that "in the end the majority generally votes for a correct answer." In my experience, more often than not, it's the other way around (esp. in the last couple of years). It never ceases to amaze me how one clearly incorrect answer, usually posted by a points hunter or respected habitué of ProZ and powwows, gets 6, 7, or more agrees. It is quite remarkable, really.

Not too long ago, I posted a mini survey on the quality of KudoZ answers, because I had been noticing a decline in the quality of answers. I am not a huge participant in KudoZ, but what I've seen suffices.

In my view, even the current system of automatic grading needs to be reassessed. One would think that moderators tried to set the example for the rest of the site, yet some of them ask questions and then don't bother grading them. If we have the time to ask a question, we must try and find time to at least give some feedback. Admittedly, sometimes things get out of hand and we really don't have the time. Sure. But some people do this regularly.


Sarah Kersley wrote:

Closing a question based on the number of agrees will make the glossary and term search features even more unreliable than they already are.

I thought that this site is aimed at professional translators, so I do not understand the point of encouraging people who do not know the source language to post questions. I think this site is trying to be too many things at once.



I fully and wholeheartedly agree with all Sarah has said. As for Henry's comment on interpreting, well, apples and oranges.



[Edited at 2006-05-19 03:47]


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Elena Pavan
Elena Pavan  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:09
Member (2005)
French to Italian
+ ...
Totally agree May 19, 2006

I totally agree with GoodWords, Mikhail and the others.
Especially after the recent discussions we had on the Italian and French forums
http://www.proz.com/topic/47651
http://www.proz.com/topic/47621
We can still try with the not-for-points questions.
But I think it should be better pu
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I totally agree with GoodWords, Mikhail and the others.
Especially after the recent discussions we had on the Italian and French forums
http://www.proz.com/topic/47651
http://www.proz.com/topic/47621
We can still try with the not-for-points questions.
But I think it should be better put a remind, a kind of pop-up that opens up when somebody wants to put a not-for-points question, just to inform those who don't have time to read the forums that the automatically selected answer is not necessarily the best one.
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María Leonor Acevedo-Miranda
María Leonor Acevedo-Miranda  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:09
English to Portuguese
+ ...
How asking? May 19, 2006

As we all have been already seen and felt, I do ask myself…
WHY BOTHER ASKING?? This is an unthinkable proposal.

As Sormane AND SO MANY OTHERS, I refuse to be an Yes woman and an Yes professional. We are professional not a bunch of kids playing on translating...

So, and I quote my dear and professional fellow Brazilian, again:

Not a good idea at all!

María Leonor


[quote]henry wrote:

Quality does matter. That's why answers have to be validated twice.

No furthers coments....


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Jennifer Baker
Jennifer Baker  Identity Verified
United States
Italian to English
My two cents May 19, 2006

Can we make certain that these FVA answers aren't entered into the KOG for the time being? Corrupting the glossary is the biggest problem here, in my opinion.
On another note, I fail to see what the rush is about. I think the idea of an interpreter using Kudoz for a quick answer is iffy at best. Even if I'm wrong about that, two agrees would never be enough to use a term. I can only speak for my language pair, but often the agrees are coming from people who don't even work in the Italian >
... See more
Can we make certain that these FVA answers aren't entered into the KOG for the time being? Corrupting the glossary is the biggest problem here, in my opinion.
On another note, I fail to see what the rush is about. I think the idea of an interpreter using Kudoz for a quick answer is iffy at best. Even if I'm wrong about that, two agrees would never be enough to use a term. I can only speak for my language pair, but often the agrees are coming from people who don't even work in the Italian > English pair, or worse yet, from friends! When I ask or answer a question, the whole point of the process is to thoroughly check the responses before choosing the most helpful answer, no matter how much time that could take.

Buon Lavoro-

Jennifer
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Muriel Vasconcellos
Muriel Vasconcellos  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:09
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
I cannot imagine what you hope to accomplish with this. May 19, 2006

Enrique wrote:

* In this mode, questions close automatically as soon as any answer receives two peer agreements. It is expected that this feature, which provides the possibility of "leaving the decision to the pros", will be useful for askers who do not speak the target language. These “first validated answers” will be of the “not for points” category.
Regards,
Enrique


IT AIN"T BROKE! PLEASE, PLEASE DON'T "FIX" IT!!
At least in my language combinations, we already have a major problem with colleagues letting their fingers do the walking before they think twice. It's not unusual -- again, in my languages -- for Prozians to follow like sheep and agree with the first answer posted. Our glossaries are chock full of flawed answers that have been consecrated too soon. This new mode would only add to the confusion.

Here's an example that happened just yesterday: I had an answer selected which I had posted 13 hours "late" (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1363241). Five of the previous six answers (with numerous "agrees") had interpreted the sentence BACKWARDS, in the diametric opposite sense, and the sixth answer was a word-for-word translation that failed to solve the ambiguity that was troubling the asker.

Cases like this are all too frequent. I start my work day at 1:00 p.m. PST, by which time European colleagues have gone to bed and those in the Western Hemisphere are winding down. A full day's questions await me. It should say something that 562 of my answers have been accepted, when most of them are many hours "late" and preceded by numerous other answers and agrees.

My request would be the opposite: that NO answers be selected for 24 hours and that the system be set to automatically prevent any earlier selections. This would offer several advantages:

(1) Points would be awarded, which would keep the best translators motivated to answer and agree. How many people are going to answer the not-for-points questions? -- certainly fewer than those who are answering the for-points questions now. I daresay that some of the best translators won't bother. They need an incentive if they are going to put their regular work aside to help their colleagues. That has been the beauty of KudoZ up to now.

(2) As it is, any asker is free to take an answer and run with it without formally closing the question. They will get BETTER answers SOONER if colleagues are motivated to participate -- through the point system, that is.

(3) The KudoZ glossaries will improve, and all of us will grow and learn from the healthy debate of questions.

I can only say that this was a very short-sighted move, and I do not find it defensible on any ground whatsoever.


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Muriel Vasconcellos
Muriel Vasconcellos  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:09
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
This isn't the time to play "dog-in-the-manger" May 19, 2006

henry wrote:

Quality does matter. That's why answers have to be validated twice.


Henry, please see my comments on the misguided notion that multiple agrees are a guarantee of quality.

Let's see how it goes, shall we? Here is the 2nd-ever FVA question: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1366113 The first one has closed: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1365639


We won't have to wait very long. It appears that the new system has already messed up two of us. Matt Coler posted some questions awhile ago from a project that I have been helping him with (because I have a graduate degree in the particular field). After posting my earlier comments in this thread, I went to check in on Matt's daily questions (the only ones I'm answering these days because I have a full plate) and I was "blocked." I e-mailed him, and we are both trying to figure out what when wrong, but it definitely appears to be a function of the new system. AND he says he hasn't had any other answers, either ...


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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:09
SITE FOUNDER
Where is the problem please, Muriel? May 19, 2006

Muriel Vasconcellos wrote:
We won't have to wait very long. It appears that the new system has already messed up two of us. Matt Coler posted some questions awhile ago from a project that I have been helping him with (because I have a graduate degree in the particular field). After posting my earlier comments in this thread, I went to check in on Matt's daily questions (the only ones I'm answering these days because I have a full plate) and I was "blocked." I e-mailed him, and we are both trying to figure out what when wrong, but it definitely appears to be a function of the new system. AND he says he hasn't had any other answers, either ...

Unless Matt Coler is maximo151 or MonikaDor, I think this might be a separate issue. Can you post the URL of the question(s) in which you are having trouble?


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Oliver Walter
Oliver Walter  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:09
German to English
+ ...
At least require "validation" from Platinum members May 19, 2006

In a similar spirit to most of the others here, I don't think an "agree" should necessarily count as a validation. Looking at Henry's example, one of the two agrees is only a "basic" member.


I think that if you insist that 2 "validations" should be acceptable, (while Henry is "seeing how it goes") only "agrees" from Platinum members should count in this.
Oliver


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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:09
SITE FOUNDER
It is not for interpreters to use! May 19, 2006

JL Baker wrote:

... I think the idea of an interpreter using Kudoz for a quick answer is iffy at best...

That is not what I am suggesting! I wrote, "If you are an interpreter, you know that often, you have a limited amount of time to select your best 'translation' of a term and just go with it. The new KudoZ mode is similar in that respect."

To put it differently, interpreters strive to achieve the best possible quality in the time they have available. I am suggesting that we can do the same thing in FVA. (And the conditions are much less severe.)


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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 04:09
SITE FOUNDER
Thanks, Oliver May 19, 2006

Oliver Walter wrote:

In a similar spirit to most of the others here, I don't think an "agree" should necessarily count as a validation. Looking at Henry's example, one of the two agrees is only a "basic" member.


I think that if you insist that 2 "validations" should be acceptable, (while Henry is "seeing how it goes") only "agrees" from Platinum members should count in this.

Interesting idea, Oliver. Instead of using membership, what if the agrees had to come from someone working in the pair and field, and native in the target? (Controversial, I know, but just as part of the experiment...)


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