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Poor Non-Native Speaker Answers to Terminology Questions
Thread poster: DCForTransla (X)
The Misha
The Misha
Local time: 19:10
Russian to English
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Sure they are! Apr 25, 2016

neilmac wrote:

They're usually good for a laugh


Because if they were not, why would we bother participating? To rise through the ranks and come out ahead in a line for penny-a-word jobs from, ahem, the other end of the globe? Thanks, but no thanks.


Daryo
 
Laurence Fogarty
Laurence Fogarty  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 00:10
Italian to English
+ ...
And again... Apr 25, 2016

There is probably some point-scoring and hence profile-rank boosting motive behind these efforts. When I started on ProZ I was also very aware of the potential usefulness of KudoZ, and participated actively...but after a while, and seeing the amount of queries made by the same person - sometimes 10 at a time - the thought of providing a free service to someone who claims to be a translator but whose work is apparently done via the Kudoz forum, I stopped. I use it now as a resource.
So on
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There is probably some point-scoring and hence profile-rank boosting motive behind these efforts. When I started on ProZ I was also very aware of the potential usefulness of KudoZ, and participated actively...but after a while, and seeing the amount of queries made by the same person - sometimes 10 at a time - the thought of providing a free service to someone who claims to be a translator but whose work is apparently done via the Kudoz forum, I stopped. I use it now as a resource.
So on the one hand, there is the problem of poor, non-native speaker answers, on the other there is the problem of someone asking an unlimited amount of terms, making a mockery of their claim to be a translator....my twopence worth.
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neilmac
Yvonne Gallagher
Daryo
 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
Incompetent Kudoz participants Apr 25, 2016

Danielle Deremo Cosimo wrote:

More of a rant / rhetorical question here, but why do non-native speakers with seemingly limited understanding of their second language even attempt to post answers to terminology questions? I mean, some of the answers I read in the Portuguese-English forums are ridiculous.


From my own occasional involvement in the "Portuguese-to-English" combination, it seems that the pool of contributors there is in dire need of native English speakers working in this pair. It is not so much blatant incompetence that I've noticed, but rather English translations offered by natives in Portuguese that are ungrammatical, clumsy, or otherwise clearly off, but that nevertheless end up garnering "agrees" and points. The fact that the answers are often presented with a high Confidence Level simply adds insult to injury.

I find such a state of affairs surprising in a pair that involves two of the most spoken languages in the world.

The same problem exists in the Spanish-to-English pair, where its most common manifestation seems to be suggestions offered by persons whose native tongue is neither English nor Spanish....



[Edited at 2016-04-25 15:13 GMT]


neilmac
Yvonne Gallagher
 
DCForTransla (X)
DCForTransla (X)
Local time: 20:10
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Amen Apr 25, 2016

[quote]Texte Style wrote:


a) you know, a lot of us native English speakers translating into our native language for a living happen to love our language and hate to see it mauled and dragged through the hedge backwards. No other language gets mistreated so much! I make HUGE efforts to understand non-natives as they mangle my language in attempts to communicate with me. I appreciate that it's hard to speak a language that you didn't grow up with and often bite my tongue hard before it starts on a grammar nazi rant.

But then on a website devoted to translation, I think I should be able to apply my own standards. Nothing but the best of English, please, especially in Kudoz where you're supposed to be helping others. No we don't exaggerate, we want to preserve our language. It's our heritage and we're entitled to that at least. puedo espanol but you don't see me butting in on Spanish Kudoz questions, I leave that to those who are better qualified than me.

so no I don't think we exaggerate. You just don't get so many foreigners maligning your language.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You've hit the nail on the head. I'm a linguist so I completely understand that English is a universal language (against some people's will) and also that there are many contexts and professions in which native-like abilities are not necessary for communication (a tour guide, a hotel manager, even a receptionist, for example). As native English speakers, we're lucky that our first language is also the most in-demand language in the world. However, translation work is one of the few industries in which the person claiming competence in English needs to have true fluency and the ability to follow grammatical and prescriptive rules of the language (as well as in their first language, if it is not English). Of course, there are native English speakers who are not trained in the formal written English necessary for a lot of translation work, but that's another issue. Here in Brazil there are unfortunately a lot of "translators" who claim that they've gained fluency in English from watching "Friends" or from working as a nanny in the US for 6 months. It's maddening and also a little disappointing in this case; I think I would feel more optimistic about our industry if they were just trying to game the Kudoz point system.


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 04:40
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER
The non-linguistic aspect of kudoz and this site Apr 25, 2016

Danielle Deremo Cosimo wrote:

I have a theory that they know something about the Kudoz system that I don't. I believe that there is some kind of scam going on...


Yes, they do, and there is no scam. They simply understand social media (which this site, and its feature kudoz are) better than most professional translators.

This site, and its various features (kudoz included) can be viewed as the classified pages of newspapers, where in the days before the internet, people used to put inserts to attract job opportunites towards themselves. These worked best on two counts: a) the more eyeballs they get, the more fruitful they are; and b) the more frequently they are inserted, the more effective they are.

Looked at from this angle, each kudoz answer is simply an insert of your services on this site as each answer carries a link to your profile, your name, sometimes your mug-shot, and relevant info such as the languages in which you work.

This is a free service provided by this site, and is immensely valuable to beginners of our profession to attract client attention.

It is human nature not to scrutinize everything that we see, and restrict our efforts to what is relevant to us, but sub-consciously we do note all that we see. And this is what these kudoz masters milk. The more their kudoz answers appear on the kudoz pages, the more noted they are by clients. Some may note the poor quality of their answers, but most will just note that they are active in kudoz and would almost certainly note their names and language pairs. This is sufficient reward for their efforts, for there is a potential that this might eventually transform into concrete job offers.

In the olden days, this trick was frequently used in movies. In the middle of the movies, for a split second images of pop corn, coke and other items on sale in the theater cafeteria would be flashed on the screen. These images are not consciously noticed by the audience, but they register in the subconscious mind and generate desire for these eatables in the minds of the audience, which materializes into an increased rush to the cafeteria during the interval break.

So these kudoz masters are smarter than us in the use of this site, even if they may not be linguistically our superiors!

neilmac wrote:

They're usually good for a laugh



In the light of the above, it is they who are having the last laugh on us!

[Edited at 2016-04-26 01:52 GMT]


 
Anton Konashenok
Anton Konashenok  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 00:10
French to English
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KudoZ: quantity vs. quality Apr 25, 2016

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

So these kudoz masters are smarter than us in the use of this site, even if they may not be linguistically our superiors!

In the light of the above, it is they who are having the last laugh on us!


Not necessarily, at least in my experience: I did get a couple of clients who found me in KudoZ, but not because of the raw points (at that time, I was indeed among the point leaders in some of my language pairs) - just the opposite, both clients explicitly mentioned the quality of answers and detailed explanations.


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:10
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Insufficient restraints on askers who game the system Apr 25, 2016

Laurence Fogarty wrote:
on the other there is the problem of someone asking an unlimited amount of terms, making a mockery of their claim to be a translator

This was exactly my finding and why I also no longer participate in KudoZ.

You have people who are unfit to be doing the work they're doing, yet competent people are encouraged to help them through KudoZ, so that these incompetents can continue to get work and (at least in theory) compete with the competent people. It doesn't make sense.

Easy solution: restrict everybody to 5 questions a month.

Dan


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 07:10
Member
Chinese to English
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Easy solution? Apr 25, 2016

Easy solution: restrict everybody to 5 questions a month.

If I were translating a book in a month and had 5 questions to ask, is that really a lot?

It's about the quality of the questions, not the quantity.

[Edited at 2016-04-25 19:12 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:10
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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Dare to disagree Apr 25, 2016

Dan Lucas wrote:

You have people who are unfit to be doing the work they're doing, yet competent people are encouraged to help them through KudoZ, so that these incompetents can continue to get work and (at least in theory) compete with the competent people. It doesn't make sense.


Dan


The way of reasoning is not quite logical to me. It is too hasty to conclude those who ask a lot of questions are "unfit to be doing the work they're doing" and are incompetents. Asking a lot of questions could mean the asker is so competent that he or she has a lot more job assignments than you and I. It could also mean the askers are serious at their work - they just want to get a second opinion on the terms they are not quite sure about so that they can do a better job. It could also mean that some people just find asking a question through the Kudoz system is much easier than doing research on the term on their own. Even in the latter case it is still nothing wrong to ask questions. Asking a question helps make the site more interactive, and being more interactive is a good thing. The askers should be encouraged other than being condemned.






[Edited at 2016-04-25 19:34 GMT]


 
The Misha
The Misha
Local time: 19:10
Russian to English
+ ...
I am afraid you got it all wrong here Apr 25, 2016

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

The more their kudoz answers appear on the kudoz pages, the more noted they are by clients. Some may note the poor quality of their answers, but most will just note that they are active in kudoz and would almost certainly note their names and language pairs. This is sufficient reward for their efforts, for there is a potential that this might eventually transform into concrete job offers.



Based on what I see going on in Kudoz, I know exactly who I WOULDN'T trust with a translation even (or better yet, especially) if my life depended on it. It has always puzzled me why some are so eager to shoot themselves in the foot by putting evidence of their utter professional incompetence in the limelight, for the entire world to see. I guess that's something that may well deserve a separate discussion.


 
Merab Dekano
Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2014)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Non-competent rather than non-native Apr 25, 2016

Non-native do not bother me. Non-competent do. It's more subject matter issue than anything else. I know a few non-native translators active in specific areas of the legal field. They are excellent, but they are excellent to translate legal texts, i.e. don't ask them to translate "Under the Hawthorn Tree". That will be a complete disaster if they make it though at all.

Do you know what bothers me the most? No, it's not stupid answers. These are largely ignored if not laughed at. Whe
... See more
Non-native do not bother me. Non-competent do. It's more subject matter issue than anything else. I know a few non-native translators active in specific areas of the legal field. They are excellent, but they are excellent to translate legal texts, i.e. don't ask them to translate "Under the Hawthorn Tree". That will be a complete disaster if they make it though at all.

Do you know what bothers me the most? No, it's not stupid answers. These are largely ignored if not laughed at. When the same person/entity asks tens of questions a day (well, I know there is a daily limit, but some use it up to the very end), it really gets ugly.

I think the limit should be tighter. What about one question a week? If you have to ask more, it's really about abusing the system rather than about using it. And what kind of translator you really are if you have to ask questions every day? Don't these folks know they can do some research before asking just any question?
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jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:10
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Never be too sure about anything Apr 25, 2016

Looking at the title, "Poor Non-Native Speaker Answers to Terminology Questions", I got an impression that the OP implied that most (if not all) answers provided by a non-native speaker of the target language were poor in quality.

What I want to say here is 1) that there are a lot of poor answers among those provided by native speakers; 2)that there are a lot of excellent answers among those provided by non-native speakers; 3) For some types of questions, a non-target-native speake
... See more
Looking at the title, "Poor Non-Native Speaker Answers to Terminology Questions", I got an impression that the OP implied that most (if not all) answers provided by a non-native speaker of the target language were poor in quality.

What I want to say here is 1) that there are a lot of poor answers among those provided by native speakers; 2)that there are a lot of excellent answers among those provided by non-native speakers; 3) For some types of questions, a non-target-native speaker is more likely to give a correct answer. This is especially true in the case in which the asker has difficulty understanding the source.
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Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 07:10
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Foot sore, cut off foot Apr 25, 2016

Merab Dekano wrote:

What about one question a week?



This is sheer insanity. If there are two unusual colloquial expressions in an interview transcript, is the translator screwed?


 
Merab Dekano
Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2014)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Make it two, then. Apr 25, 2016

Lincoln Hui wrote:

Merab Dekano wrote:

What about one question a week?



This is sheer insanity. If there are two unusual colloquial expressions in an interview transcript, is the translator screwed?


But not fifteen a day.


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:10
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Exactly, Misha Apr 26, 2016

The Misha wrote:

Based on what I see going on in Kudoz, I know exactly who I WOULDN'T trust with a translation even (or better yet, especially) if my life depended on it. It has always puzzled me why some are so eager to shoot themselves in the foot by putting evidence of their utter professional incompetence in the limelight, for the entire world to see. I guess that's something that may well deserve a separate discussion.


KudoZ helped me to find a few colleagues whom I trust to recommend to clients when I am not available, or collaborate with them as a team for larger projects. It also helped me the other way, as you described.


neilmac
Yvonne Gallagher
Robert Carter
 
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Poor Non-Native Speaker Answers to Terminology Questions






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