Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4] >
Don't allow asker to select an answer which has not received any agrees or any comments at all
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
finnword1
finnword1
United States
Local time: 10:01
English to Finnish
+ ...
wait for an "agree" Jan 5, 2015

In my language pair (Finnish into English) there appear to be the same people competing to be the first to answer. Once, one of them, semi humorously, even recognized that someone else had already beaten him. Rushing to be the first defeats the purpose. Often the questions are complex and will require specialized knowledge and even research. The more people will agree, the more confidence there can be. I have answered some terminology questions myself, but I don't remember if anyone ever agreed.... See more
In my language pair (Finnish into English) there appear to be the same people competing to be the first to answer. Once, one of them, semi humorously, even recognized that someone else had already beaten him. Rushing to be the first defeats the purpose. Often the questions are complex and will require specialized knowledge and even research. The more people will agree, the more confidence there can be. I have answered some terminology questions myself, but I don't remember if anyone ever agreed. The askers certainly never posted even a thank you note, so I gave up.Collapse


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 15:01
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
There have been earlier threads complaining of too many agrees... Jan 5, 2015

Agrees were/are a way of earning Browniz, so anyone who wanted to use the Blue Board or other features they could 'pay for' with Browniz could buzz past a few KudoZ questions and sprinkle agrees here and there. You don't even have to give a reason as you do with disagrees.

Others were accused of always agreeing with their friends, regardless of how correct or helpful they really considered the answer to the question.

Agrees can easily be reduced to the level of 'likes'
... See more
Agrees were/are a way of earning Browniz, so anyone who wanted to use the Blue Board or other features they could 'pay for' with Browniz could buzz past a few KudoZ questions and sprinkle agrees here and there. You don't even have to give a reason as you do with disagrees.

Others were accused of always agreeing with their friends, regardless of how correct or helpful they really considered the answer to the question.

Agrees can easily be reduced to the level of 'likes' in the social media, and if awarding points depended on agrees, then I am afraid it would not improve the quality of the glossary.

Whenever I enter a term in the glossary, I consider adding more than one answer if there were several good suggestions. And I would advise people always to go to the question and look at all the answers when searching the glossary.

Kudoz questions are sometimes asked - in my languages at least - about terms that appear in an unusual context, or seem to be used in an unusual way. Many answers are selected on the basis of the context. So while the chosen answer may be very good in the original asker's context, it may not fit so well in others. And this is sometimes reflected in agrees too, when people have not read the question thoroughly.

KudoZ is not perfect, but I don't think this proposal would improve it.

[Edited at 2015-01-06 19:17 GMT]
Collapse


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:01
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Aha Jan 5, 2015

Several agrees doesn't make an less than ideal answer an ideal one. Those with no agrees might quite possibly be the best answer.

The premise of this suggestion has some inherent logical fallacy.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:01
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hmm, which answer should I pick? Jan 5, 2015

jyuan_us wrote:

Several agrees doesn't make an less than ideal answer an ideal one. Those with no agrees might quite possibly be the best answer.

The premise of this suggestion has some inherent logical fallacy.



No agrees don't say "I agree." No agrees certainly don't make an answer an "ideal" answer in my book.

Your "those with no agrees might quite possibly be the best answer" (as opposed to those with agrees) is not going to hold up within a professional community of translators. That would really defy any logic. So don't accuse me of making a suggestion that "has some inherent logical fallacy." Several agrees by professionals versus no agrees at all is not a logical fallacy.

But reading about all the things people supposedly do in KudoZ (incl. "sprinkling agrees for BrowniZ points) really shows what KudoZ is or at least what people here seem to think it is. Thanks for pointing it out.








[Edited at 2015-01-05 21:10 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:01
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
More input Jan 6, 2015

Just to give you a bit more info about other people thinking similarly.
This seems like a compromise to me even though points can go to the wrong person. But IMO, this would be a definite improvement IMO.

http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/134153-kudoz_contribute_to_this_entry_whats_the_use-page2.html

Ildiko Santana wrote:
I don't think we should treat this as an isolated incident or point fingers at any particular individual. I also don't think that entering incorrect translations into the KudoZ glossary is in violation of any site rule. Answerers are free to suggest anything they believe to be correct and askers are free to select the translations they find suitable, it's their prerogative. The problem comes when these incorrect translations are entered into the glossary. What I was getting at is to try to find a way, for the sake of future users of the glossary, to display disagreement with incorrect terms or, better yet, to disallow such entries ever making it into the glossary. Similarly to questions abandoned by the asker where the answer with 2 or more net 'agree's automatically gets selected, there could be a way to allow glossary entries *only* if the term received 2 ore more net 'agree's. This way, askers can still choose wrong answers (their problem) but such wrong answers won't come up in future glossary searches (everyone's gain).
What do you think?



PS: That other thread discusses the poor quality of many terms found in the glossary and how to improve that situation. It becomes obvious that "usefulness" of a term for an asker is not necessarily the best criterion for a quality glossary.

[Edited at 2015-01-06 00:25 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-01-06 02:06 GMT]


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 19:31
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Don't be too sure... Jan 6, 2015

Andrea Halbritter wrote:
... just like an insurance policy won't guarantee that your house is not burning down one day...


In fact, if insurers have the same sharp minds as veteran kudoz point hunters, then the house would definitely burn after taking the insurance policy. How else would the insurer make good on his investment on the insurance premium!


 
Ildiko Santana
Ildiko Santana  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:01
Member (2002)
Hungarian to English
+ ...

MODERATOR
please do not introduce limitations on asker's choice Jan 6, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Just to give you a bit more info about other people thinking similarly.


Hello Bernhard,
Since you have quoted me from a 4-year old thread to illustrate "other people thinking similarly", I would like to point out that the topic then was about the KudoZ Glossary entries, specifically "Contribute to this entry - What's the use?" and had nothing to do with your dilemma, which relates to rewarding points. I am sorry if you feel you were wronged in the KudoZ arena but I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that askers' choices should be limited in *any* way. I agree with those who have expressed above that the lack of agrees says little or nothing about an answer's validity or correctness. Even if it did, to disallow anyone to choose whichever answer they find the most helpful to them would be plain wrong, in my opinion. I also have over 10 years of KudoZ experience here, many of them similar to those of my colleagues where answers get no reaction from other site users, either because they don't bother or because they don't have the necessary knowledge in the particular subject area to form an opinion. In fact, in extreme cases great answers draw disagrees simply because the peers don't know any better. This definitely doesn't make an answer incorrect or unacceptable. Lastly, I support the previously stated suggestion that if it becomes annoying, it's time to stay away for a while. It's not worth wasting our time on how others use this system. We do the best we can to help out fellow translators, the rest is not up to us. ; )


 
polyglot45
polyglot45
English to French
+ ...
Disagree Jan 6, 2015

Sorry Bernhard but I cannot agree with your proposal.
While in theory it may make sense, in practice I have seen too many cases where the answers with the "agrees" are wrong!
As others have said before me, there a lot of sheep that line up behind the answers given by their clique or their best buddies without even contemplating the fact that some of those answers are frankly wrong.
It has happened to me. I have particularly expert knowledge, built up over years, in a couple of
... See more
Sorry Bernhard but I cannot agree with your proposal.
While in theory it may make sense, in practice I have seen too many cases where the answers with the "agrees" are wrong!
As others have said before me, there a lot of sheep that line up behind the answers given by their clique or their best buddies without even contemplating the fact that some of those answers are frankly wrong.
It has happened to me. I have particularly expert knowledge, built up over years, in a couple of fields but I have seen my right answers (OK - perhaps not substantiated by evidence but how can you prove what you "know" if you don't have chapter and verse to hand?) totally ignored, while all the sheep, for whatever their motivations, line up behind a mistranslation. On a couple of occasions I have fought back, trying to explain why my answer was right and the other answer wrong but to no avail.
Not surprising that many people are discouraged from answering at all. If I continue, it is because I feel sorry for the end client who is about to receive a rubbish job.
Collapse


 
Kirsten Bodart
Kirsten Bodart  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:01
Dutch to English
+ ...
Such a scheme Jan 6, 2015

is basically only valid when contributors only ever select the 'right' answer (in their opinion). It is plain that in Hindi (and dare I say many other language pairs) this does not apply at all. Even in pairs with less strategic preoccupation like Dutch should be, there have been complaints about cliques agreeing with each other.

Also in German>English I would suggest that sometimes there is a lack of understanding so that some English native speakers tend to agree with each other a
... See more
is basically only valid when contributors only ever select the 'right' answer (in their opinion). It is plain that in Hindi (and dare I say many other language pairs) this does not apply at all. Even in pairs with less strategic preoccupation like Dutch should be, there have been complaints about cliques agreeing with each other.

Also in German>English I would suggest that sometimes there is a lack of understanding so that some English native speakers tend to agree with each other about a less than ideal answer. And that's in your own language pair.

Complaints about Chinese>English where Chinese natives pick answers in their droves that reportedly make no sense in English would also warn against a system where askers can't even autonomously decide to select the really best answer. As askers are ultimately the only ones who have the entire context in front of them, I'd suggest that they are still the best party to decide what's best.

I personally never enter an answer into the glossary if it isn't always right or if someone looking it up later could get it totally wrong due to me (basically this includes all phrases that are slightly off in the source, idiomatic and not mainstream or vague/ambiguous). What my answerer then does if they're given the chance to earn 60 browniz, is not my problem. Maybe I should revise that strategy.
Collapse


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:01
Russian to English
+ ...
Why not? Sometimes most of the peers may be wrong. Jan 6, 2015

There should be absolutely no restrictions as to which answer the person asking the question may select, as long as it is the correct answer.

 
Merab Dekano
Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2014)
English to Spanish
+ ...
No restriction, please Jan 6, 2015

The asker makes a choice, and if it is a wrong choice, too bad for them. It is their (the asker's) responsibility, isn't it?

If we restrict the asker's choice to whatever criteria, two things may happen:

1. Angry askers
2. Lack of "enthusiasm" on the part of the potential contributors to the answers

We need none of the two, in my opinion.

Restricting is not the best way to draw up higher standards. If somebody provides a "joke" answer, it
... See more
The asker makes a choice, and if it is a wrong choice, too bad for them. It is their (the asker's) responsibility, isn't it?

If we restrict the asker's choice to whatever criteria, two things may happen:

1. Angry askers
2. Lack of "enthusiasm" on the part of the potential contributors to the answers

We need none of the two, in my opinion.

Restricting is not the best way to draw up higher standards. If somebody provides a "joke" answer, it will remain, well, a joke, even if it is selected as the right answer.

KudoZ glossary is like a typical dictionary. It is full of possible answers, some of which are wrong. It is up to us to put them in context, if proper.
Collapse


 
Merab Dekano
Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2014)
English to Spanish
+ ...
It already exists Jan 6, 2015

On the other hand, there is already a possibility to let the peers decide on the validity of the answer:

1. Ask a question
2. Do not select any answer
3. After certain period of time (don't ask me how much time), the system "automatically" selects the answer that has more "agrees"

I reiterate, however, that it is not a good idea, in my opinion, to deprive the asker from their choice (to either select an answer themselves or to leave it up to the "system", ba
... See more
On the other hand, there is already a possibility to let the peers decide on the validity of the answer:

1. Ask a question
2. Do not select any answer
3. After certain period of time (don't ask me how much time), the system "automatically" selects the answer that has more "agrees"

I reiterate, however, that it is not a good idea, in my opinion, to deprive the asker from their choice (to either select an answer themselves or to leave it up to the "system", based on peer “agreements”).
Collapse


 
Erik Freitag
Erik Freitag  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:01
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
I agree: Not a good idea Jan 6, 2015

I agree with the general consensus here: This would not be a good idea. I've seen questions where the most helpful and correct answer had more disagrees than agrees (I'm hoping Tom will excuse me for using those nasty words, for want of better ones).

Abuse may and will happen (though I don't see this very often, and the OP and I partially share our working language directions) - no amount of regulation will prevent this.

As to the importance of the glossaries - I will n
... See more
I agree with the general consensus here: This would not be a good idea. I've seen questions where the most helpful and correct answer had more disagrees than agrees (I'm hoping Tom will excuse me for using those nasty words, for want of better ones).

Abuse may and will happen (though I don't see this very often, and the OP and I partially share our working language directions) - no amount of regulation will prevent this.

As to the importance of the glossaries - I will never understand why people think they are important. They don't offer anything that's not already there in the Kudoz discussions. (I'm repeating myself: http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/243085-suggestion_abolish_kudoz_glossaries.html )
Collapse


 
Cetacea
Cetacea  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 15:01
English to German
+ ...
In an ideal world... Jan 6, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Your "those with no agrees might quite possibly be the best answer" (as opposed to those with agrees) is not going to hold up within a professional community of translators.


If ProZ actually were a "professional community of translators" (or rather a "community of professional translators"...), you would be right. But it simply isn't. As a result, the only correct answer might get no agrees or even a disagree or two, simply because the commenters feel that "it doesn't sound right" or "I've never heard that before" (especially when they know neither the source language nor the field well enough). And since some commenters have faithful followers, the wrong answer will end up with several agrees, while the right answer is ignored. Just one reason why I've pretty much stopped contributing.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:01
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Some conclusions Jan 6, 2015

Thanks to everyone for your input.

It is obvious that hardly anyone will support my idea of only allowing askers to select answers (for the glossary), reward points and enter the term into the glossary based on at least one agree. As was pointed out, even answers with the most agrees can be wrong and answers without agrees can be right because people are not using the system as it should be used or don't know any better. I'm amazed about some of the strategies supposedly used by use
... See more
Thanks to everyone for your input.

It is obvious that hardly anyone will support my idea of only allowing askers to select answers (for the glossary), reward points and enter the term into the glossary based on at least one agree. As was pointed out, even answers with the most agrees can be wrong and answers without agrees can be right because people are not using the system as it should be used or don't know any better. I'm amazed about some of the strategies supposedly used by users to get points, be it KudoZ or BrowniZ points.

The reason I posted in the first place was that someone's answer was selected that had no comment whatsoever but seemed the best one to the asker. In this case, there had been another answer (mine) entered first which was very similar as it expressed exactly the same idea, explained the phrase and had given additional links. The other answer even included a grammatical error which the asker actually fixed before putting the phrase into the glossary. So, the selected answer wasn't wrong, it was basically the same as I had suggested before, with two words different which were two other options which I wouldn't have chosen. In addition, the answer chosen came from someone not even in the language group. Naturally, I didn't like what happened because I felt I had done all the legwork and then someone came along and got the points. I might add that my answer had received two agrees.

So, I can see that one's answers, while often appreciated, can sometimes fall by the wayside and you scratch your head and go "why?" Naturally, all answers are still accessible and I myself look at all answers when searching for a term in the glossary.

Still, if the system were used correctly, I hold that answers with agrees would have more weight than those without agrees. And yes, maybe no one ever comments on particular answers at all, but that really doesn't automatically give credibility to the answer. If the answerer is a seasoned professioanl, yes, it's very likely that the answer is correct, and if the asker is also a knowledgable and responsible translator, he/she will make the right decision and only choose the answer that is really applicabler. But that's not the case. With all the bad things supposedly going on in KudoZ, anything is possible.

As far as my experience goes, I earned my points mainly because my answers were supported by agrees. Yes, occasionally, one of my answers was chosen when there were no comments and when, in addition, it was the only answer. Sometimes, the asker took a boat and left and never came back and the answer is still open. Some other time, the answer closed automatically based on peer agreement.

Alas, my impression was that, most of the times, the right answer is indeed supported by agrees. Most often the "first right" answer is selected, even in case of copycats. But many times, the wrong answer or even a copy of an answer is selected, and points are awarded. I felt that this last point rather applies to answers without comments or with neutrals or disagrees.

Thus, I thought that my suggestion could stabilize the system a bit and give the glossary more credibility. But I see that it could possibly prevent some good answers from being entered into the glossary. Namely those that are indeed good but no one cared to comment on and that were given by answerers who put some great effort into them. A compromise would be to enter an answer that didn't get an agree only then into the glossary and reward points for it when there are no other answers with agrees. But I know that even that idea won't be accepted.


I do have to say that based on my latest experiences in and with KudoZ and based on your many thoughts here, it wouldn't be a good idea to add the restriction I suggested. As far as my discontentment with copycats goes, I need to develop my own strategy and not ask for an additional rule. I will comment on things I find unfair and I will be more selective about whose question I answer. As far as the quality of the glossary is concerned, it will indeed vary a great deal based on how the answer came to be entered into it. It's certainly not a reliable dictionary but if you use it and go back to the original question (if there was one) and compare the answers, you might find something you can use. Which is a good thing.

A note to askers: It does make sense to wait a while for additional answers and comments from various colleagues before selecting an answer.



[Edited at 2015-01-07 02:38 GMT]
Collapse


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Don't allow asker to select an answer which has not received any agrees or any comments at all






CafeTran Espresso
You've never met a CAT tool this clever!

Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer. Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools. Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free

Buy now! »
Trados Studio 2022 Freelance
The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.

Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.

More info »