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Should Translation Be Mixed with Personal Understanding and/or Explanation?
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标点符号不是重点 Mar 16

David Lin wrote:

Thanks. It's a typo - the end of the first line should read as a semi colon.

Sleeping in the spring night, unaware of dawning;
The birds are everywhere, singing.


问题是不敢添加 “ I was " ,因为原文中找不到“我”、找不到“床”,也没有“早晨”。 所以也就不知道是人睡觉还是鸟睡觉。

摒弃理解,也只能满足于这个结果。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Subject of the present participle Mar 16

David Lin wrote:

With this understanding, I would like to put out my humble modified version as follows:

Sleeping in the spring night, unaware of dawning,
The birds are everywhere, singing.

Since the subject of the present participle and the verb in the main clause should be the same in this sentence, it is very obvious that it is the birds that are “Sleeping in the spring night, unaware of dawning” in your version. If not convinced, you may compare your sentence to the sentence below to see who is the subject of the present participle. Obviously, it was Johnson, not Johnson’s friend Hector, who was lying in bed.

One of Johnson’s earliest ventures in book-making was the translating of Lobo’s Voyage to Abyssinia, which put five guineas into his pocket. Lying in bed, he dictated sheet after sheet to his friend Hector, who carried them off to the printer without staying for Johnson to peruse them.


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Imperative Mood Mar 16

A similar version can be found with Google search, but it represents a different type of error:
Sleep in spring, unaware of dawning;
Then hear birds everywhere sing.

Here, “春眠不觉晓,处处闻啼鸟” was translated into an imperative sentence (命令句, 祈使句), which implies, e.g., “You must sleep in spring … then hear birds … sing”, or to soften the command, “Please sleep in spring … then hear birds … sing”. Needless to say, this version is also poor and incorrect.

Learn English Grammar - The Imperative Mood
https://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/moodimperative.html
The imperative mood (often referred to simply as a command) is used to express demands, instructions or requests.

We usually use the second person (plulral or singular) with an unspoken "you" for the subject.



[Edited at 2017-03-16 17:06 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Not a common understanding Mar 16

David Lin wrote:

As a pure reader, I guess we could have the common understanding that the author was fresh from a sleep ...

Your guess is also arguable because the author didn't spell out that he "was fresh from a sleep" in his poem. I regret to say that your understanding is your own personal understanding, not a common understanding. For example, someone else renders it into "Stay drowsy unaware of the dawning" as below:

coolfool wrote:

Considering avoiding the above-mentioned meaning that doesn’t occur in the text, someone else renders it into
Stay drowsy unaware of the dawning,
Birds call here and there come spring.


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David Lin  Identity Verified
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理解和研究 Mar 17

Fargoer wrote:

没有理解,寸步难行。

譬如鸟儿,在哪儿呢?有几只?原文都没说。都靠读者自己理解。


Fargoer,

非常同意你的观点。

其实吟诗作对本身就包含许多抒发个人感情的动机及成份,如果读者缺乏同理心,不设法理解、推敲诗人当时的心情,就很难领略和欣赏这些作品;翻译出来的内容也就会出现偏差。

不过像《春晓》这样的古典文学-唐诗,由于创作年代久远,如果现代译者不小心参考历代学者的注释,恐怕翻译出来也会出现歧义。

所以个人认为,也不能全靠个人理解 personal understanding,必需加上一点研究和参考注释的功夫才成。

如果有人抬杠说:“其实只有一只鸟在笼子里。诗人一觉醒来,提着鸟笼到处溜达,走到哪都能听到鸟叫声。” 我能说什么?


哈哈! 古人其实很懂享受啊。当时未有什么 iPod 或之前的 Walkman, 手提音乐耳机的发明,就有人晓得这样享受天然的乐音。

一次在南京旅游,早晨在公园看到许多长者聚集,每个人捧著一个鸟笼,他们说是 “溜鸟”。

当时真的觉得处身於 “处处闻啼鸟” (以及优美的南京话)的氛围中呢!

其他“溜鸟”场合可以在香港广东茶楼看到,如下图。

不知道可不可以称之为 “饮茶鸟”呢?

birdcage


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Personal Understanding Mar 17

David Lin wrote:


所以个人认为,也不能全靠个人理解 personal understanding,必需加上一点研究和参考注释的功夫才成。



David,

But research is still an individual endeavor, although you could have a group of scholars doing the research.

The result of the research is still the personal understanding of the individual or that of the group of researchers.


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标点符号及英文文法 Mar 17

Fargoer wrote: 标点符号不是重点

问题是不敢添加 “ I was " ,因为原文中找不到“我”、找不到“床”,也没有“早晨”。 所以也就不知道是人睡觉还是鸟睡觉。

摒弃理解,也只能满足于这个结果。


对的!

只要看看这首英诗就更加清楚,标点符号及英文文法,都不算什么!

someones married their everyones
laughed their cryings and did their dance
(sleep wake hope and then)they
said their nevers they slept their dream

all by all and deep by deep
and more by more they dream their sleep
noone and anyone earth by april
with by spirit and if by yes.


听说唐朝许多诗人都喜欢喝酒(以李白为最)。

有可能作者晚上喝了不少,醒来头昏脑胀,有点儿眼花缭乱,不如修改为:

Hanging over from the spring night, unaware of dawning;
The birds are everywhere, singing.


鸟儿应该不会喝醉吧,除非是客家名菜 “贵妃(醉)鸡” 。

drunken chicken
- 三立电视台


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ysun  Identity Verified
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理解、研究与参考注释 Mar 17

David Lin wrote:

不过像《春晓》这样的古典文学-唐诗,由于创作年代久远,如果现代译者不小心参考历代学者的注释,恐怕翻译出来也会出现歧义。

所以个人认为,也不能全靠个人理解 personal understanding,必需加上一点研究和参考注释的功夫才成。

翻译之前先要理解,那是必须的,否则就是瞎翻。像那种 “Sleep in spring … then hear birds … sing” 的译文,就是瞎翻。不过,谁也不要根据自己的 personal understanding,来轻易否定别人的 personal understanding;(请注意这里用的是 semicolon) 也不要根据自己的一点研究和参考注释的功夫,来轻易否定别人研究和参考注释的功夫。

俗话讲“春困秋乏”。春眠不觉晓、生物钟延迟,那是很自然的。睡眠是一种节律,会受体内激素与外界环境的影响。阳光、灯光都会影响褪黑素的产生,通过抑制褪黑素的产生来调节生物钟。声音当然也会影响睡眠。根据我们的生活经验,住所周围的各种鸟儿通常在日出之前、天朦朦亮时就会开始啼叫,因为 the early bird catches the worm。春天刚出生不久嗷嗷待哺的幼鸟则叫得更欢。当然,住曼哈顿摩天大楼的居民未必会有此体会。所以,不能轻易否定更不应嘲笑别人的理解:“就是这些鸟儿的欢鸣把懒睡中的诗人唤醒”。

http://www.gushiwen.org/mingju_633.aspx
诗人惜墨如金,仅以一句“处处闻啼鸟”来表现充满活力的春晓景象。 但人们由此可以知道就是这些鸟儿的欢鸣把懒睡中的诗人唤醒,可以想见此时屋外已是一片明媚的春光,可以体味到诗人对春天的赞美。

依我看,以上网站不是什么文盲或科盲随便搞出来的,还是很有参考价值。

对于同一首古诗,各人有各人的理解,各人有各人的译法,那很正常。如那位 Shany 所说,“你觉得译得不好也有你的道理,但也有很多人觉得他(指许渊冲先生)译得很好,各有各的看法”,“个人觉得还是以一种比较开放的心态去看待比较好”。我以前说过,“这个关联性就是闻啼鸟、才觉晓。即使许老先生译得不是十全十美(subjunctive mood),也谈不上什么'歪曲或篡改原意'!” 我现在还是如此认为。


[Edited at 2017-03-18 01:36 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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标点符号及英文文法 Mar 17

David Lin wrote:

Fargoer wrote: 标点符号不是重点

问题是不敢添加 “ I was " ,因为原文中找不到“我”、找不到“床”,也没有“早晨”。 所以也就不知道是人睡觉还是鸟睡觉。

摒弃理解,也只能满足于这个结果。


对的!

只要看看这首英诗就更加清楚,标点符号及英文文法,都不算什么!

...

听说唐朝许多诗人都喜欢喝酒(以李白为最)。

有可能作者晚上喝了不少,醒来头昏脑胀,有点儿眼花缭乱,不如修改为:

Hanging over from the spring night, unaware of dawning;
The birds are everywhere, singing.


鸟儿应该不会喝醉吧,除非是客家名菜 “贵妃(醉)鸡” 。

请注意,Fargoer 说的是“标点符号不是重点”。这可不等于你说的“标点符号及英文文法,都不算什么!” 这两者的意思差远去了。真不知你是怎么理解别人话的。难道这就是你的 personal understanding?我的理解是:Fargoer 说“标点符号不是重点”,相比之下“摒弃理解”才是最要命的!

不讲标点符号及英文文法,如何写出像样的英文?你的前一个版本,就是相当于 "鸟儿春眠不觉晓"。你这次修改后的版本中,"Hanging over" 形容的仍然是 "The birds";你用的那个 semicolon 照样是错的。我前面提供的那些参考链接看来都是白费了! 不过,我还是相信 “群众的眼睛是雪亮的”,包括英文中文都懂的群众,也包括那些只懂英文而不懂中文的“领导”。这就是为什么我最近常用英文发言的道理。


[Edited at 2017-03-18 03:23 GMT]


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David Lin  Identity Verified
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understanding from research and credible source Mar 17

wherestip wrote:

David Lin wrote:


所以个人认为,也不能全靠个人理解 personal understanding,必需加上一点研究和参考注释的功夫才成。



David,

But research is still an individual endeavor, although you could have a group of scholars doing the research.

The result of the research is still the personal understanding of the individual or that of the group of researchers.


Hi Steve,

Thanks for your comment. The point is about the quality of one's understanding, not about how many people IMHO. I think one's understanding should be backed by decent research with credible source of explanation (whether done by yourself or with a group), not by own guessing, hunch or pure hearsay. Especially when you translate something classical written a few thousand years ago - like the Tang poems.

In this context, bible translation comes to mind as another example. To translate ancient Greek (New Testament) and Hebrew (Old Testament) into English took plenty of research before one could get a fairly good understanding of the actual meaning of the ancient texts to translate into modern-day English, Chinese or any other languages.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Comprehension is a must Mar 17

David Lin wrote:

wherestip wrote:

David Lin wrote:


所以个人认为,也不能全靠个人理解 personal understanding,必需加上一点研究和参考注释的功夫才成。



David,

But research is still an individual endeavor, although you could have a group of scholars doing the research.

The result of the research is still the personal understanding of the individual or that of the group of researchers.


Hi Steve,

Thanks for your comment. The point is about the quality of one's understanding, not about how many people IMHO. I think one's understanding should be backed by decent research with credible source of explanation (whether done by yourself or with a group), not by own guessing, hunch or pure hearsay. Especially when you translate something classical written a few thousand years ago - like the Tang poems.

In this context, bible translation comes to mind as another example. To translate ancient Greek (New Testament) and Hebrew (Old Testament) into English took plenty of research before one could get a fairly good understanding of the actual meaning of the ancient texts to translate into modern-day English, Chinese or any other languages.


David, I agree with you that some classical texts may or may not need research in order to achieve a good understanding of the original. However, even with proper research, fundamentally it is still an individual's personal comprehension of the text that is at the center of doing translation.


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Which one is your real personal understanding Mar 17

Mar 14, 2017
David Lin wrote:

As a pure reader, I guess we could have the common understanding that the author was fresh from a sleep ...

Mar 17, 2017
David Lin wrote:

有可能作者晚上喝了不少,醒来头昏脑胀,有点儿眼花缭乱,不如修改为:

Hanging over from the spring night, unaware of dawning;
The birds are everywhere, singing.


Which one is your real personal understanding, if not "the common understanding"?

It seems to me that you contradict yourself in just three days.


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When did the other colleagues gain their first taste of classical Chinese poems? Mar 17

David Lin wrote:

I gained my first taste of classical poems through the study of the selected works in "The Three Hundred Tang Poems" 《唐诗三百首》in my high school years.

Based on my personal experience, I believe most of the colleagues from mainland China, including those residing overseas, started tasting classical Chinese poems at a very early age. So did their little young children or grandchildren.

小学语文古诗词全集45首(人教版1-6年级)
http://www.linjingjing.com/xuexi/gushici45.htm

20161003 中国诗词大会 挑战者:李尚容
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gmzWy6KCgA

两岁小妞背古诗 (including 《春晓》)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFCOT-bpzHE

[Edited at 2017-03-18 00:10 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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见 Hanging over 有感 Mar 18

David Lin wrote:

听说唐朝许多诗人都喜欢喝酒(以李白为最)。

有可能作者晚上喝了不少,醒来头昏脑胀,有点儿眼花缭乱,不如修改为:

Hanging over from the spring night, unaware of dawning;
The birds are everywhere, singing.

鸟儿应该不会喝醉吧,除非是客家名菜 “贵妃(醉)鸡” 。
drunken chicken

既然你有如此雅兴,俺不和上你一首就有点儿对不住你。不过,俺这个算不上是什么诗,只能算是顺口溜。且供大家一笑吧!

醉鸟
醉鸟春眠不觉晓,
尚在梦中乱啼叫:
鸟儿得意须尽欢,
莫使金樽空对月!


10m


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Fargoer
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田园生活很遥远 Mar 18

ysun wrote:

 
 根据我们的生活经验,住所周围的各种鸟儿通常在日出之前、天朦朦亮时就会开始啼叫,因为 the early bird catches the worm。春天刚出生不久嗷嗷待哺的幼鸟则叫得更欢。 


看来您有生活。

“处处闻啼鸟” 的时间,确实应该是在日出之前。鸟儿也是春眠初醒,抖擞精神,互道早安呢!

“诗人睡得真香,以至旭日临窗,才甜梦初醒” ,说的大概是“曼哈顿摩天大楼居民”的生活。 在乡野田舍, “旭日临窗” 的时候,天早就大亮了。就算尚未“日上三竿风露消”,鸟儿肯定早就吃饱了,哪还有兴致歌唱? 

[修改时间: 2017-03-18 05:51 GMT]


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